posted
If your 17 year old daughter told you that she was pregnant, what would be your response?
I have family friends whose high school junior is pregnant. She is actually due in just a couple of months (she hid it all of this time).
Her mother wants her to keep the baby. She is willing to do most of the childcare.
Her father wants her to give the baby up for adoption (possibly to a couple who have been trying to have a child for several years).
Posts: 51 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Since my baby is due next month, (March 17th), and I am single, I feel that I should respond. I am a bit older then 17, 26 to be exact, I still went through the same thing, of what should I do. There was no way I was going to marry the father of my baby, mainly because he is claiming that we never did anything to create this child in the first place. But, that is a whole other story. For a while, at the beginning of my pregnancy, I was thinking about adoption, but then I realized just what a gift I had been givin. I am doing exactly what Heavenly Father created me for. To be a Mother, to bring forth life. To do the one thing that ONLY women can do. And I couldn't give my child away. I don't even know this little person growing inside of me, but I Love him or her, with all of my heart. I would do ANYTHING I could to protect this life within me. Even if it ment I had to die in the process. Yes, I realize that I am a little bit older then the young lady you are speaking of, but, that dosen't mean that she is incapable of being a wonderful parent to her child. And I am sure that the Church will stand by her and her family, no matter what decision she makes.
posted
There are too many factors to make a proper judgement for someone else. Is your friend LDS? If so go to the bishop. He has some specific tools at his disposal to help make this decision. (If you friend is not, contact your bishop and ask him for a copy the pamplets the church publishes.) Do you live in Utah or somewhere else where LDS Social Services have offices? One of the things the bishop will do is have the mother contact them (with her parents.) If you're not in Utah, or even if you are, there is an LDS Social Services hot line where confidential information can be given. The number used to be 1-800-537-2229, and probably still is. They deal with this everyday and can give better advice. (Non members are invited to call as well as members. As are "interested friends" as well.)
The obvious question to ask to help answer this question is: What is best for the baby?
On the adoption side, there are many, many more people waiting to adopt than there are babies to adopt.
posted
Having dealt with some less-than-sensitive LDS Family Service's staff while serving in a bishopric, I think it might be wise to tell your friends what to expect from this group. Their #1 goal is to get the baby in a home where it can enjoy the blessings of the temple. They don't want to hear speculative dreams about how "she's such a nice girl; surely she'll find someone someday who can take her to the temple and then the baby can be sealed to them." Wouldn't it be great if that were really the case? I really do hope that those who choose to go this route find someone.
Reality is, lots of those dreams remain dreams, and there are lots of couples out there aching for the opportunity to provide both homes and sealing blessings. One Family Services Counselor in a training session for priesthood leaders told us the #1 obstacle for them getting babies placed with adoptive families was the opposition of the birth mother's mothers (the future maternal grandmothers). He told us that it was very common for a birth mother to make the decision to give the baby up, only to have Grandma put her foot down. It was almost like he was setting these women up as public enemy #1. I didn't like the way it was addressed.
Don't get me wrong. Temple blessings are VERY, VERY, VERYimportant, and I truly believe that they are one of the greatest gifts we, as a church, have to offer the world. It is just that I've perceived a lack of charity from some of the LDS Family Services personnel I've dealth with (I've known and dealt with others who were fabulous) as they have sought to convey the importance of those blessings. I don't think this is a position where you can afford to not have charity. A wrong move could totally alienate the birth mother, her family, etc.
Personally, I know of a few wonderful couples that are on the list of prospective parents and would be proud to have them raise my children if I were unable to.
Posts: 1411 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I will tell you right now, I am definately biased in my opinion of this. I have a very difficult time with teenage girls that keep their babies because they just love them too much to give them up. Giving up your child for adoption is the single must loving and unselfish act a woman can perform, IMO. It requires wisdom, and faith and strength, and maybe that's why there are so few that do it. I have seen SO many keep their babies, only to have the child raised by grandma and grandpa, or passed around to different relatives that really have difficulty raising them. Or as the baby gets older, less cute, and more of a complex human being, they are cast aside like an unwanted puppy dog.
The daughter of a friend of ours just got pregnant and had a baby. She was planning on going to college before, and now is at home with the baby. They are LDS, and the mother was determined that if her daughter didn't keep the baby that she would raise it because, it is her "blood". I don't understand what that means! With her understanding of the gospel, she should know that the baby is a child of Heavenly Father's and deserves a loving family with a mother and father. This baby will in all likelyhood be raised without a father's influence or grandfather's. The grandmother will more than likely raise her as she raised her daughter, and who knows how many times the cycle will continue.
Okay, now the reason that I am so biased. I have 3 birth children, and 1 adopted child. The birth mother of our daughter is one of the wisest people I have ever met. She understood that she needed to grow up herself. That she needed an education, to figure out what she wanted in her life before she could take the responsiblitiy of another human beings welfare. She also had many in her family that kept their babies and she saw the results of it. I love and appreciate this girl more than I can ever express. My daughter talks about her like she knows her, & I tell her everything I can about her. She looks forward to the day when they will meet. In the mean time, my daughter has siblings that she plays with. She has a father that loves her dearly. She has security of me always being there physically for her. There are things in our lives that we can give her, that her birth mother could not and wanted for her. (And I'm not talking about money, in our case it was a farm). I have no doubts that if her birth mother would have kept her that she would have loved her. But would she (the birth mother) have met her full potential as a person? Her life would have been so much more difficult, and that has to have an impact on a child.
We adopted through LDS Social Services. It is a semi-open adoption. We knew the birth mother and father's first names but not their last. They knew the same about us. They chose us according to what was important to them and according to the spirit as they prayed about it. We met each other about a month before she gave birth. It was an amazing meeting. I was never so nervous in all my life. But once we met, it was just like a family reunion. She has written to us a few letters since and told us how she is doing in college and her feelings about the baby. It was been a wonderful experience.
Sorry I'm rambling. I just really feel that adoption gets such a bum rap. There are SO many people that ache to become parents. When we adopted we only have one child. Our first child had died. Our second was 6. We had been on the waiting list for 4 years, and thought we would never be able to have more children. Medically, the only way we could would be through invetro. And then she came! It was such an amazing thing! We had been praying and hoping and our prayers were answered! Two months after she was born, we told our son that he prayed so hard that we got a two-for-one, because I got pregnant again!
Adoptive parents all have a story too, and all that I have known understand and appreciate every day what a gift they have. I think that any woman that finds herself in this situation, should at least look at the possibility. In my experience, they don't even read the pamphlet.
Posts: 332 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
As everyone here already knows, there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this particular problem. Individual circumstances must determine individual responses, guided, hopefully, by the inspiration of the one who knows all things. Having said that, I'll add my enthusiastic endorsement of adoption.
One of my best friends conceived while young and unmarried, about ten years ago. I can't even pretend to understand the depth of the sacrifice she made, but she did place the child for adoption with an LDS family.
When I talk to her about it, it's obvious that it still hurts a bit, but, this far down the road, she has no regrets about the choice of adoption. She's been able to see the difference it's made for the child to belong to a stable, mature, intact family, and she's glad every day for it.
I wish she belonged to this forum, so she could tell you her own story. I can't do it justice.
Anyway, I'm in awe of her willingness to sacrifice in this matter.
Posts: 587 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I could use some information. I'm perplexed at the statements that there are so many families waiting for the opportunity to adopt a child, and yet I am advised that there are many children waiting, wishing that they could be adopted.
What's the disconnect? Do I just have bad information?
posted
I was just wondering this myself greenfrog.
I think that the situation might be that there are many children waiting to be adopted and there are many people waiting to adopt. But the people waiting to adopt are waiting to adopt babies. Probably as close to newborn as possible. I think that this is kind of a sad situation, but it seems to be the case.
Posts: 43 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
The "I want a baby, not a child that has a history" may have a lot to do with the list of kids up for adoption that have not been.
What would you do, if your daughter came to you and said "I am pregnant"? Could you as a father give away a grandchild? Bishop asked me that the other day. Difficult question and the answer I have is yes, as the Spirit directs.
Mombob said everything that I feel, and would only add this: Every baby deserves a mother and a father.
I also know a family that had adopted 1 and when adoption #2 was completed, they found out that she was pregnant.
Posts: 1003 | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
The vast majority of children awaiting adoption are older, or have special needs. Many have physical or mental handicaps, while others are born addicted to drugs or with fetal alcohol syndrome, which can lead to serious problems down the line.
As a father of two special needs children, I can say that I love my boys more than anything in the world, but I can understand why a family would not willingly take on those challenges. And to those who do, I believe the greatest of Heavenly Father's blessings will be placed upon them in the world's to come.
In regard to giving up the child, there is no doubt that from a statistical point of view, the child would be better off with adopted parents. I think that all young mothers who choose to keep their child believe they can provide a good home. Unfortunately, reality tells us that the majority of the time, that's not the case. IMHO, not nearly enough praise is given in this country to mothers who lovingly give their children over to a better life.
Posts: 557 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Our first child took us 4 years to have. As time progressed and we were not blessed with a baby, we began to think of adoption and, of course, wanted to adopt a baby. Looking locally we found the hurdles, including income requirements, to be daunting. There was high demand for US babies and foreign adoptions are very expensive. Thankfully, just as we were starting to look into adoption we found out our first son was on his way.
As we considered adoption again when 5 years had passed after our first son was born, I thought, "Who would choose to put their baby with us?" We had income sufficient for our needs and that of a couple of children - needs being food, clothing and shelter. We couldn't afford the fancy worldly things, however. Who would pick our family to place a child with when there were those with the nice comfortable lifestyles with their Suburbans, big houses and big screen TVs? These thoughts were not encouraging and I still think there is justification for such thoughts. I think it is pure fantasy to think such considerations do not take place. We have had no experience with nor did we contact LDS Social Services due to these types of concerns.
Many of the adoption services want you to be a foster parent first (after going through a number of training classes and meeting income and space requirements). Then, if your lucky, a child you have in your home may become available. Otherwise, your forced to go through bonding and detachment (along with concern) as a child bounces from their parents to you and may have been in other foster homes previously. Most of the children available have had troubled childhoods or health problems (mental or physical). Few babies are available this route. To adopt babies through other routes is expensive.
Thankfully, once again we learned we had a little boy on the way. Now our daughter, who is officially due March 20 (but may most likely come any time now), came quickly after our second son (to our great surprise!).
Posts: 5601 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
The family is LDS. Although the daughter, Kristina, is very non-practicing. Although this crisis has brought her closer to her faith, I think.
She herself is an adopted baby, and doesn't want to give her baby up for adoption. I think this is mostly due to teenage angst, along the lines of "my baby could be given to parents as bad as my parents."
I don't know. I'm not very close with her, as she is closer to my sister's age. Really, I ask for help more along the lines of counseling my sister, who is stuggling with how her friend's pregnany, more than whether adoption would be a good choice.
I am 23 and recently married. I know that my husband and I have talked about adoption, due to a genetic problem he might possibly pass on to our children. I can not believe that her mother thinks it's a good idea for her to keep a baby. After all, if she were responsible, she wouldn't have this baby to begin with.
And no, we don't live in Utah.
Posts: 51 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Until recently, I had rather luke-warm feelings regarding this issue. I thought that teenage mothers should give their babies up for adoption as a general rule, but I didn’t feel very strongly about it.
I’ve just had a baby, and I’ve learned a little more about the adoption process, and I now feel very strongly that young mothers should give up their babies only as a last resort in extraordinarily desperate circumstances.
Several things have influenced this opinion:
1. A friend of mine in high school had an older sister she knew nothing about because her mother gave her up for adoption. The adoption agency set up a file to which the birth mother could send letters in the hope that someday, her daughter would want to know something about her birth mother. Well, her daughter finally did access that file, and they were reunited. The most shocking revelation was that she had been sexually abused by her adoptive father, so how can anyone ever trust any adoption agency every again?
2. My sister has been trying to have children for six years. She has considered adoption, but it’s expensive and complicated. Her husband is not interested in using LDS Family Services because their adoptions are “semi-open,” that is, the birth mothers are allowed to meet and choose the adoptive parents, and the adoptive parents are required to send the birth mothers photographs every year until the child is six. (This requirement does not appear to be enforced.) His refusal to work with the birth mother at this level leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I don’t think it’s unusual. As many of you have noted, society seems to regard with some contempt, the kind of women who would give up their children for adoption. (Ironically, society holds the same contempt for women who “should” have given up their children for adoption.) I don’t think that people should adopt children if they have such a low regard for the child’s birth parents. [Edit: I wrote the above paragraph before reading mombob’s post. She seems to have a very high opinion of her child’s birth mother that will likely serve everyone very well. She also does a better job describing the “openness” of the adoption.]
3. I just had a baby. The experience has been surprising in many ways. One thing that has surprised me has been an almost overwhelming sense that it is my responsibility to protect my child. I’m not surprised to learn that I am responsible for the protection of my child, but I am surprised at how overwhelming that feeling is. It takes some effort of will to trust her father and grand parents with the task. I’m quite sure that the farthest jump I could ever make would be to entrust her care to an aunt or an uncle, and only if my access was frequent.
4. A couple of months ago, the bishop invited representatives from LDS Family Services to speak to the Relief Society and the priesthood quorums for our fifth Sunday combined meeting. Meeting those representatives solidified my opinions regarding adoption. One of the sisters denied the reputation that LDS Family Services has of “just being after peoples babies.” She said that LDS Family Services has many services for young single mothers even if they choose to keep their babies, but she didn’t elaborate at all, so I remain unconvinced. She listed some statistics that most single young mothers choose to keep their babies, some are given to relatives to raise and only a few are given up for adoption. She then seemed very proud to be able to report that 100% of the babies that they place are sealed to their adoptive parents in the temple. I was unimpressed. I wanted to know that 0% were ever abused.
So, my answer to the original question is yes, I would encourage my teenage daughter to give her baby up for adoption, but I would insist that I become the adoptive parent. I guess that makes me “public enemy #1.” But I feel that this arrangement would be best because my daughter would have enormous access to her child. She would not have to entirely give up her responsibility to protect her child. She could still be a part of the child’s life while the child could receive the sealing blessings of the temple and benefit from the stability of her grandparents home.
On the other hand, I will be 49 years old when my daughter is 17. If she had a child that year then, I would be 67 when that child graduated from high school. If I had reason to believe that I couldn’t handle it, then I might consider encouraging my daughter to place her child with one of her aunts or uncles. My husband’s youngest sister would be 35 and my youngest brother would be 36. Many people are still having children at that age, but my plan would also include relocating to wherever they are. [Edit: The possibility also exists that by the time the child was 4 or 8 or 12, that her mother would be in a position to adopt the child back.]
Someone asked if a young teenage mother could have met her full potential as a person if she didn’t give up her child for adoption. I suspect they are referring to missed opportunities of education and the like. I would say two things to that: (1) Few (if any) human beings ever reach their full potential in this life, so I hardly consider that a great tragedy. (2) A person will fall far shorter of reaching their full potential if they never experience parenthood than if they remain uneducated or if they never find interesting employment or if they never own their own home, etc.
Finally, Hamba Tuhan mentioned “the depth of the sacrifice” that his friend made ten years ago when she gave up her child for adoption. I wonder if we don’t make the whole situation a lot more painful than it has to be. I mentioned that my brother-in-law isn’t interested in participating in the “semi-open” adoptions arranged by LDS Family Services. In spite of that, I think adoptions should be even more open than described by mombob. If “it takes a village to raise a child,” then why shouldn’t the birth mother be a part of that village? I don’t mean visitation rights where the child spends a weekend a month with the birth mother, but there ought to be some way of working her into the child’s network of extended family, like a favorite aunt who shows up on holidays, athletic events and piano recitals. Personally, I can’t imagine participating in an adoption without that kind of contact.
posted
Greenfrog, I don't have answers to your question, but I do have some experiences. Babies do seem hard to come by in the United States. Many of the children "waiting for adoption" are older children who do have special needs due to birth defects (often drug related), abuse by parent(s), and/or parental neglect. Many of these children have been abandoned by parent(s) or taken away by state authorities. (In many cases, it would have been much better for these children to have been put up for adoption as infants, but few parents want to make that sacrifice when the children are very young; they wait instead until they've screwed the children up and don't know what to do with them.)
In either case, these children end up in state custody. This, in my opinion, is where much of the trouble starts. Separating children from their birth parents has almost been demonized in the U.S. Consequently, in most cases I've known, it's almost impossible to adopt even these older children. The goal of social workers often is the eventual reunion of the child with his/her birth mother. As a result, these children get bounced back and forth between foster parents and birth parents until they're almost beyond help.
I've known several American families who have tried to adopt some of these special needs and neglected older children, but usually they are only allowed to "borrow" them until the drug-addled birth mother gets out of rehab and takes them back until her next arrest.
I know I probably sound bitter and cynical here, and I know I'm not being very even-handed, but I've seen too much of this. I worked two years in an alternative school in the United States with dozens and dozens of kids who fit this pattern. I can't tell you how many times I've had teary-eyed kids tell me how much they wish they could just be adopted by ____________ (the loving, intact family they are currently but temporarily living with). I also can't tell you how many times foster parents have had their hearts ripped out as the children they've loved as their own are once again taken away--sometimes just because the case worker feels they are growing too close emotionally.
At some point, I hope, we may start to do what's best for the children, but I don't forsee that happening soon.
Posts: 587 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Erin, I respect your opinions, though obviously we don't see eye-to-eye. (You posted apparently while I was writing.)
Two clarifications:
1) I'm a he.
2) My friend chose an open adoption for her child and was quite involved with it for the first few years. The adoptive parents were very OK with this. As time went on, however, she started to notice that her involvement seemed to be confusing to the child, and she backed out totally. Again, I'm in awe of her selfless concern for the child.
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posted
Erin said: The most shocking revelation was that she had been sexually abused by her adoptive father, so how can anyone ever trust any adoption agency every again?
and
I wanted to know that 0% were ever abused.
Are you suggesting that adoptive fathers are more likely to abuse their children than birth fathers?
Also: I don’t think that people should adopt children if they have such a low regard for the child’s birth parents.
If the adoption is an open adoption (and I'm not convinced open adoptions are always such a good idea) and the adoptive parents need to work with the birth mother, then for the well-being of the child, there would need to be a reasonably good working relationship between the adoptive and birth parents. Otherwise the adoptive parents' opinion of the birth parents in irrelevant.
Posts: 5994 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I wasn't going to get into this discussion but now I feel prompted to share our experiences.
In 1998 when our oldest son left on his mission I felt very strongly that there was another child out there somewhere who belonged to our family. My husband and I had all ready had 5 babies of our own so we decided on a "special needs" adoption. Special needs is described as any child over the age of 2, any child of mixed race or color, any child with birth defects or problems that have been described in other posts.
We went to LDS Social Services and were treated very well. We met with our bishop and started all of the paper work, which is quite extensive. I just knew there was another child out there that was around 3 or 4 years old that was supposed to be part of our family. As we were filling out the paper work I began to have some health problems and we realized that I probably couldn't handle having another young child physically and for some reason the burning need to adopt went away.
My husband and I discussed this and just couldn't come to any conclusion. I still felt there was another member of our family out there but just didnt think that adoption was the way for us. So I prayed and waited and wondered what those strong feelings had been for.
My son came home from his mission and met a young woman at one of the LDS dances. As he is dancing with her she says, "I'm going to tell you right now that I have a 4 year old daughter and if you can't handle that you can walk away right now with no hard feelings." My son's reply was, "That doesn't bother me a bit." Three months later they were engaged and December of 2001 were married. Just before they were married I finally figured out the feelings we had been having. That little girl, our instant grand-daughter, was the child I felt was missing in our family. At the time I had been having these feelings she was just about 3 years old. Our daughter-in-law was never married to the biological father (I call him the sperm donor but my hubby dislikes that! ). I know that the Lord was preparing us for this addition but we were mistaked to think that we were to adopt her. My son is now going through the adoption process since the sperm donor hasn't seen his daughter is 4 years, has never paid any child support and signed away his parental rights years ago. As soon as the adoption is completed we will go to the temple to see her be sealed to her parents and what a joyful day that will be! We are going to celebrate!!!
Now, normally I would suggest that a single teenager give her child up for adoption but it is a very personal decision and there is no one right choice that will fit every situation.
When I was having my babies my parents were working with LDS Social Services as a place where pregnant teens could go live while they were pregnant and deciding what to do with their baby. They had at least 8 young women living with them and at times had two or three at a time. Some of those young women gave their child up for adoption and some kept their child. I talked with all of them and I don't remember one of them feeling like they were being forced to give their child up for adoption by LDS Social Services. I could see the anguish on these young girls faces as they tried to make the best choice in their circumstance. Each was different. One young lady wanted to put her baby up for adoption but he was born with so many birth defects that he was unadoptable. He was basically born without a working brain, only a brain stem, so her mother adopted him and cared for him even though he only lived for less then a year.
This is such a personal and sad situation and I have asked myself many times what I would do if one of my daughters came to me and told me they were pregnant. As much as I love babies it would be hard for me to give a grandchild of mine away, even my instant grandchild is as much a grandchild of mine as the biological baby her parents are now expecting. My husband, daughter and I would have to make it a matter of prayer and hope that we would have the strength to listen to the Lord's answer. It is such a sad situation to be in and it happens far too often because our children haven't learned to lived God's commandments on chastity before marriage. We need to do a better job as parents in teaching our children how wrong the world's view is on this subject.
I know that I am thankful that my daughter-in-law didn't give her daughter up for adoption because then we wouldn't have her but I also know that is the exception to the rule, not the rule.
posted
Erin said: The most shocking revelation was that she had been sexually abused by her adoptive father, so how can anyone ever trust any adoption agency every again?
and
I wanted to know that 0% were ever abused.
Are you suggesting that adoptive fathers are more likely to abuse their children than birth fathers?
I didn't see such a suggestion anywhere in Erin's post. There is a certain percentage of all parents that abuse their children. Adoption agencies have a responsibility (IMO) to make sure that the parents they place children with are not in that percentage. Adoption agencies can't do anything about people abusing birth children that are not up for adoption, so those abusers are not being discussed here. Family members, doctors, teachers, the police, etc. have the responsibility to watch out for and report birth parents that abuse their own children. Not adoption agencies.
Posts: 860 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
With this question of whether to keep the baby or give it up for adoption, you really need to ask yourself which person are you doing this for, you or your child? In no way am I saying that giving a child up for adoption is an easy thing to do. But you can qualify yourself to death over the "what-ifs" as well. One of my high school class mates had an abortion because her thinking was, "Well, at least I know what happened to the baby!" The future is uncertain, and frankly, you can't say that your child under your loving watch and care will be perfectly safe, because tragic things happen everyday.
I think that is why LDS Family Services was so good for us. It was a spiritual experience. TheOne mentioned that he thought people with the higher income would get the babies. I am sure that happens. But the girls that go through this process are strongly encouraged to ponder and pray over this. They are given several home studys of different couples that tells about that family and what type of child they want. Our child's birth mother had 3 or 4 of these home studys, took them home and and chose one that she thought was right. When she came back to the agency though, she told her social worker that she didn't feel right about it, and could she have a few more home studys. They gave her ours and a few others. She picked us. She was impressed that we said that we would take any baby, regardless of color and circumstance. And we are a LONG way from high income. We're just a simple family. But she prayed about us and chose us. I know that she was inspired to choose us.
Posts: 332 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I will state some statistics that may or may not make any difference to some:
If an LDS woman gives her child up for adoption, her chance of eventually marrying in the temple and having a family of her own is 7 out of 10. If she keeps the child, it is 3 out of 10.
If she gives the child up for adoption, the chances that she will become pregnant out of wedlock again are 1 out of 10. If she keeps it, 8 out of 10.
Those are just 2 statistics provided by LDS Family Services at a meeting I attended for RS/Priesthood leaders. They brought out, and I firmly believe, that the single greatest priority for EVERYONE should be to that child, and what is the best thing for that child.
As for whether or not adoptive parents could abuse/neglect their children: I am sure it is possible, but I see no evidence that they do so at a greater rate than parents who give birth to their children. To say that you want a 100% guarantee is really naive and absolutely positively unattainable. There is no possible way to ensure WITHOUT FAIL that a child will not be mistreated.
I have opinions on both sides about this. I was adopted, and could give you all a novel about my experiences being an adopted child. My husband and I's best friends in the world have adopted 3 children through LDS Family Services, and I could ALSO write a novel about those experiences.
To me, the discussion is not about anything other than what gives the child the best chance at a stable, loving, mother AND father.
Posts: 4313 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Trooperswife, I have also heard similar statistics given--many times. But the percentages cited referred to the child and more specifically to a girl child and not a boy child. In fact, the stats which I remember cite that 95% of girl children will repeat their mother's mistake of out-of-wedlock pregnancy if not given up, and a similar percentage will not repeat the mother's mistake if they are placed with a faithful, Temple sealed couple. A high (but not as high) percentage will not marry in the Temple if kept by the birth-mother and will marry in the Temple if adopted to sealed parents. Erin, note that there are at least 5% that don't work out. We can not always know who they are beforehand.
I am the father of adopted twins (boy/girl pair). The birth-mother had other children that were not given up for adoption, and they are a mess! One is in trouble with the law and the other one is stable socially, but hasn't a spiritual bone in his body. They both snickered at the twins’ baptismal service. The grandparents are recommend holding members, very active now, not so active when the birth-mother was growing up. As you can tell it was a very open adoption, and it has worked well. My kids are wonderful, with spiritual impulses that can be honed by my wife and I as they show up. But they are thirteen now, and sometimes I wonder if the problems of the birth-siblings might not be genetic!
At the risk of sounding callous, I have something to say to lovemyspirituality: Children truly are a gift, but the gift of children is meant to be given to a husband and wife, not a never-married single. This, especially, can't be construed as a gift by one who knows the law of chastity. Yes, Heavenly Father created you to bring forth life, and all the equipment works regardless of social situations or personal righteousness. But He also intended that gift to be used in the bounds of chastity and married life. That isn't me talking, that is the continual message of the scriptures and of the living prophets. By engaging in sexual relations outside of marriage you appropriated something that would have been given as a gift in the proper context. Does this mean that you can’t be blessed by this baby? No it doesn’t--you can indeed be blessed! But, will you be that small minority that can teach a daughter that what you did was not OK and she should live better. And how do you counter the argument, “Well, you did it and I turned out ok, didn’t I?” Again, I’m not trying to be callous, and I truly appreciate what it takes to share something that personal, but the way it was presented was a rationalization of the situation and I felt I had to point it out. Follow the promptings of the spirit and the promptings of the Spirit that your Bishop has. I hope everything works out and you are happy. If the Spirit proves me wrong, then thank God I am. But let it be the Spirit and not emotions.
[ February 22, 2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Wayde ]
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Statistics are just that, statistics. I question whether these statistics are an accurate reflection of the truth. I know, that the church doesn't have access to data on all single moms. It just isn't possible, given the scarcity of LDS Social Services offices outside the Wasatch front. At any rate, I have such a hard time counseling others about a situation like this on-line, or in real life, where I don't have all the information.
For example, lovemyspirituality (or some hypothetical person like her) may have received unmistakeable confirmation from God that she is to keep this baby, that she will find a spouse who will take them to the temple, etc.
If that is the case, she is absolutely right to keep the baby, and we as a church would be absolutely right to support her in doing so. None of us here are in a position to second-guess her revelation, since we aren't even in a position to receive it for her (unless her Bishop is a Nauvoo participant).
On the other hand, I think we are absolutely right to insist that her feelings to do so be based on revelation. This is again problematic, due to the fact that many single mothers got themselves in that situation by virtue of the fact that they aren't particularly adept at heeding the spirit in the first place, so to expect them to suddenly be super-receptive to the spirit seems naively hopeful. At the same time, I recognize that this attitude, taken to the extreme, is wrong, too, and flatly denies the repentance process, the Atonement, and their corresponding ability to make us all clean and receptive.
I guess the whole decision must be viewed through the lenses of the churches mission, to save souls. At the very least, two souls are at stake, the mother-to-be's, and the baby's. I think if I were advising a single mother-to-be spiritually, I would start with the idea that there is still time to make the decision to adopt or keep, and that the important thing is to get yourself in the spiritual shape to make that decision. Now, more than ever before, you have need of the spirit in your life, because the consequences of this choice will be further reaching that any others you have been faced with. Pray. Get out your scriptures, study them daily, especially those portions dealing with the Atonement and personal revelation. Repent. Then, when you are in a position where you feel you are again in tune, the decision can be faced. Regardless of what the decision is, you will be in better shape spiritually than when you began.
As far as the baby's soul goes, I can imagine situations where I would be comfortable leaving it in the hands of grandparents. If you have an expereiced couple that has successfully raised lots of kids in the church, and then one of their younger daughters makes a mistake, their batting average is still pretty good.
On the other hand, I remember dealing with a situation where the grandmother was absolutely inactive, a fairly recent convert, with little understanding of the gospel, and little dedication to any of its principals. Here, I felt a little less comfortable with the idea of letting Grandma raise the baby.
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The Spirit must be the guide. I rember way back as a teenager, I decided that if i ever got a girl pregnant, I would marry her and make the best of the situation created by my poor decisions. I wanted to make sure I took responsibility for my actions and decisions.
Looking back, I probably didn't think too much about what was best for the child. And even now I have a hard time what would in reality be truly better for the child. I don't think its so clear cut that adoption IS the best option for the child.
I may differ from current church policy on this, but for ME and my life, I would keep the child and suffer whatever was needed to make things the best for them.
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Good post, MDS. For those who understand they have access to personal revelation, your advice was perfect. No matter what general guidelines our personal experiences have supplied us with, there will always be exceptions.
I would hate to be in the shoes of the one making the decision. God bless you all! You have my support.
It's a sticky dilemma, as abortion when appropriately recommended can be. My mother was born in her mother's bed, in a house with no running water, delivered successfully by a neighbor who was a midwife. For months before that, the doctor in the small town where they lived had tried everything to convince my grandfather to allow an abortion because he knew he was going to lose both the mother and the child. It very well could have been the case. Thank heaven, however, that my God-fearing grandparents listend to what they thought to be the voice of God telling them all would be well.
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There is another aspect of adoption that is very important, and that is the repentance process. I have heard many an unwed mother say, "Sure I might have made some bad decisions and ended up pregnant, but when I look at my child I know it was all worth it." That's not the way blessings work! We are supposed to suffer for our sins, and this would be one of the hardest things to suffer. But because it's hard, does not mean it should be dismissed by saying that they will be the exception to God's laws.
Our prophet has said, “When marriage is not possible, experience has shown that adoption, difficult though this may be for the young mother, may afford a greater opportunity for the child to live a life of happiness. Wise and experienced professional counselors and prayerful bishops can assist in these circumstances.” President Gordon B. Hinckley, “Save the Children,” Ensign, Nov. 1994, 53.
For those women that have kept their babies and it's worked out, I am very glad it did, but that doesn't mean that their choice was the one Heavenly Father wanted for them. It is easy to look at your life and say that everything turned out alright and so that is the correct decision. But you only know one side of the story, and as great of a parent as you think you are, there are better ones than you out there too. Who knows what that child would have/could have become if they had put it up for adoption? The unwed mother is taking on responsiblities that God has not agreed upon. Why would He say to anyone that it is okay for them to raise a child alone, when He has told our prophet that children should be raised by a mother and a father?
I did notice that in the quote above it said adoption " may afford a greater oppurtunity for the child", so he's not saying that it is perfect. But it is the standard our prophet has set, and if we believe in him, we need to follow his council.
I think that it all comes down to selflessness. We humans are not very good at it, and we will try to justify our positions in what we do anyway we can. I am sure that if I had gotten pregnant when I was a teenager, I would have kept the baby. But I wasn't a member of this church either. And maybe that is the bigger part of this issue. The girls that get themselves into this position, don't have much ( or any) of a testimony, and so they can't make a decision based on revelation. I also know that we onlookers can't force them to do anything. But I really believe that too often we sit and hold their hands and tell them whatever they decide is right, and in that process we condone their behavior. I would have to say, " I'm sorry if it hurts you, I'm sorry that your going through such a difficult time right now, but this isn't right for your baby. If you really believe that there is no one else out there in the world that can care for your baby better then you can, then you are deceiving yourself. You aren't ready. Someday you will be. Do what is right for this child." I said those words to my sister-in-law. She chose not to listen to them. Her baby is 1 year old. She is going to school in a town an hour away from her mother, and she has basically left the baby there for her to care for. (Her mom works 2 jobs BTW to support her 17 and 13 year old sisters). That baby deserves better.
As far as grandparents raising the child, I can't understand how any parent that has raised their children could feel that they are more deserving to raise one more, when there are couples out there that are worthy, stable, people that, through no fault of their own cannot become parents themselves. Raising this grandchild would deprive these couples from the unmeasurable blessings we gain from having children.
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Unfortuantely, adoption - whether or not - is not wholly up to the mother. Before there can be an adoption, the father also has to relinquish his rights. In one state, the mother is required to put an ad in the paper naming any and all that could be the legal father, thus ensuring that years after the adoption a father doesn't come back and claim his parental rights. Even if the mother wants to keep the baby and to raise the baby, does not guarantee that the custody of the child will not be challenaged at a later date.
If I had a teenager that came to us saying that his girlfriend was pregnant, I would hope the baby would be given to LDS social services. I would want for that child to have a chance at an eternal family - with a mother and father. If I had a teenaged daughter I would feel the same way. Would my feelings be different if I had a daughter, but widowed with an infant? Yes, I would hope that she would raise her child, herself. Of course, with all the support I could give. My answer is definately situational = unmarried: allow the baby to be adopted. widowed: raise the baby.
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quote: The most shocking revelation was that she had been sexually abused by her adoptive father, so how can anyone ever trust any adoption agency every again?...I wanted to know that 0% were ever abused.
Erin,
I understand your shock. I agree that it is the responsibility of the adoption agency to do absolutely everything in their power to insure an abusive individual is not allowed to adopt a child. However, I feel that the likelyhood of a child being exposed to an abuser is much, much higher if the child remains with a single mother. Statistically, a child is much more likely to be abused by the mother's boyfriend or a stepfather than an adopted parent.
[ February 24, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Wisconsin Band Man ]
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Jacare: I did not mean to suggest that adoptive fathers are more likely to abuse their children than birth fathers. I suspect that they are far less likely. My concern was that the birth mother had wholly given over her ability to protect her child to other parties. Those other parties failed, and there was nothing she could do about it. She couldn’t even know about it. That’s a greater sacrifice than I can imagine counseling my daughter to make. Unless I could be 100% sure that nothing like that would happen, then I would need to have some personal power to make sure that it didn’t happen.
trooperswife wrote that is was “…really naive and absolutely positively unattainable” for me to write that I want “…a 100% guarantee... There is no possible way to ensure WITHOUT FAIL that a child will not be mistreated.” Of course I know that she is right, but, assuming that she had children, I’m sure that there are things that she does to ensure that her children are not mistreated, as do I.
Now that I have experienced motherhood, I do not believe I could divorce myself from the moral responsibility to protect my child, even if the legal responsibility were given to another. Tragic things happen every day, and if something tragic happens to my little girl, then I will be very sad, but if I do everything that I can, then I will have fulfilled my responsibility. If my daughter gave up her child for adoption, I do not believe that she would be doing every thing that she could because I could adopt the baby, and she could remain partly responsible if not wholly responsible.
Even if the adoption is a closed adoption, I believe that if the adoptive parents have a low opinion of the birth parents, then that can be communicated to the child (intentionally or unintentionally) and cause harm.
mombob wrote: “The unwed mother is taking on responsibilities that God has not agreed upon. Why would He say to anyone that it is okay for them to raise a child alone, when He has told our prophet that children should be raised by a mother and a father?” It is a sentiment often repeated, that children deserve a mother and a father. But it occurs to me that no one ever suggests that young widows should give up their children for adoption, even if they refuse to remarry.
My point is just that the ideal is often unattainable. We often have to make due and do the best we can with the resources at our disposal. The original question was: “If your 17 year old daughter told you that she was pregnant, what would be your response?” And, I still think that my response would be to adopt the child myself. I don’t think LDS Family Services could find better parents for my grandchild (even if my daughter made a terrible mistake.)
And, as for “deprive[ing those] worthy, stable, [couple] that, through no fault of their own cannot become parents themselves…from the immeasurable blessings we gain from having children.” I just can’t take responsibility for that. It’s not my fault they can’t have children, (and I don’t’ think it’s God’s plan for them, either, ) but I don’t know them, and they would not figure very prominently into my decision in how I counseled my daughter.
posted
The decsion I have reached about my pregnancy is not something I made lightly. In fact, when I first found out that I was pregnant, I had pretty much set my mind on adoption. However, Heavenly Father made it very obvious to me that that was not in His plan. Mainly because the plans that I was beginning to make for my unborn child kept falling through. So, I prayed on it, and I prayed some more, and kept on praying until I realized that Heavenly Father was giving me an answer, I just wasn't listening. I kept reciving books from different people on breastfeeding, and raising children. Neither of which I could do if I gave up my child. Also, Wayde, I am not a never married single. I have been married, to someone who treated me in a way that I cannot describe here. And no, he is not the father of my child. Something I thank God for every single day. I'm not sure I could have left him if I had a child with him. I hope and pray that my ex-husband learns to treat women better then he did me, but that is between him and God, not him and me, anymore. Anyway, I am not perfect, I never claimed to be, my flesh is just a weak as the next persons, but I have already asked for and recieved forgiveness for my past transgressions. I know that a child deserves a Mother and a Father, and for right now, I'm going to have to count on Heavenly Father to be that for my child.
I trust you to make the correct decision. Only God knows all things. May he continue to bless and guide your steps. I know He will.
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quote: And, as for “deprive[ing those] worthy, stable, [couple] that, through no fault of their own cannot become parents themselves…from the immeasurable blessings we gain from having children.” I just can’t take responsibility for that. It’s not my fault they can’t have children, (and I don’t’ think it’s God’s plan for them, either, ) but I don’t know them, and they would not figure very prominently into my decision in how I counseled my daughter.
This sounds a lot like "am I my brother's keeper" to me. I find it difficult to understand your great love for your hypothetical daughter/granddaughter, when you have such little compassion for others.
And why do you think that it's not in God's plan for them if they cannot conceive a child? So, what happens if they adopt? Would they be following Satan's plan then?
Perhaps it's difficult for you to have empathy for others, but if you talked to anyone that has had infertility problems (and I'm not talking about a few months, I'm talking going through years and years of tests, doctors, false hopes, or miscarriages) I'm am sure that they would tell you that it is a heart breaking experience. You should be thankful that you haven't had to go through those experiences. I also find it difficult to believe that you don't know "those" people, because infertility is a very common problem these days. It's unfortunate that your answer to their suffering is "it's not my problem".
posted
Do you really find it difficult to understand my love for a hypothetical granddaughter? If you’re a parent can’t you imagine having more compassion for your child, than you have for mine - hypothetically?
And how can you guess that I have such little compassion for others when all you know is that I'm not eager to give them my grandchild? I think that would take more than a "little compasson."
I stated on another thread that I don’t believe that God has individual plans for each of us. I believe that He has one plan for all of us, but let’s leave that discussion over there. I’m sorry I brought it up here.
My sister has infertility problems, and I’ve considered offering myself as a surrogate, but that’s not something I would do for money any more than I would counsel my daughter to give her child to be adopted by strangers. I might have an answer for my sister’s suffering. But, I don’t pretend to have the answer for a nameless, childless couple on the waiting list at LDS Family Services. Do you have an answer?
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I do have an answer, and that's inspiration. I was a nameless, faceless stranger to my daughter's birth mother. She prayed. I know she prayed a lot, because she wasn't satisfied with the first batch of home studies LDS Family Services gave her. She asked for more families, and she chose us. It wasn't because of our economic statis (we barely have one) or any other surface reason, she chose us because she felt a connection with us. When we met her it was like she was a long lost cousin or something. We all just hit it off. I can't explain it, but we instantly became a family.
Do you think that she didn't love her child as much as you would, because she gave her up? I say she loved her more. I say that she had faith in God and in prayer and in someone else that is trying to live the gospel as best as they can.
Would you really be giving up "your" grandchild? That child wouldn't be yours. It's Heavenly Fathers. He's entrusted His child to you. What requirement did you fulfill to have that child? Did you have a police background check? Did you go through interviews with Social workers and answer all kinds of questions about your life, your future, your relationship with your spouce, your ideas about child rearing, etc, etc. Did you open your house for inspection? Did you wait for years? You didn't have to do these things. And yet God has given you a child.
How can you be so sure that you are the only and best parent for this child? Do you think that if your sister decided to adopt that others would view her the same way you are looking at the "nameless, childless" strangers? Wouldn't that make you sad?
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I don't think I am on either side here yet... I hope I am not offensive, but ...
"...It's Heavenly Fathers. He's entrusted His child to you. What requirement did you fulfill to have that child? Did you have a police background check? Did you go through interviews with Social workers and answer all kinds of questions about your life, your future, your relationship with your spouce, your ideas about child rearing, etc, etc. Did you open your house for inspection? Did you wait for years? ..."
If you really believe that God has entrusted His child to those He choose, then what difference does it make if social workers, and police choose someone else, compared to His judgement?
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quote: It takes some effort of will to trust her father and grand parents with the task.
No one has commented on this so I'm wondering - am I the only one who completely trusted my husband with my children as soon as they were born? My husband is a better dad than just about every man I know. My kids adore him. He loves to be with them. (I'm not being biased here - others have commented on it too). But still, I trusted him to be the father of my children before we were married and it never changed. Anyone else feel the same way?
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My point was that Heavenly Father entrusted all of us to have children. Parents have done some pretty horrific things to their children, and yet He has given us that free agency to do so. Why would a birth parent feel like they have the "power" to withhold a child based on the reasoning that they don't have all the facts? God has all the facts, and He lets His children go everyday. Maybe that sounds callous, I'm not trying to trivialize the pain of going through this process. I guess my big point here is if you believe in the gospel, why are you taking the worldly view here, instead of taking the road less traveled (literally) and going with prayer, advise from the Prophet, and the inspiration of the Holy Ghost? It seems like a control issue to me, and the blanket statements like " I would never give a child up for adoption," that bother me the most.
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). I know that the Lord was preparing us for this addition but we were mistaked to think that we were to adopt her. My son is now going through the adoption process since the sperm donor hasn't seen his daughter is 4 years, has never paid any child support and signed away his parental rights years ago. As soon as the adoption is completed we will go to the temple to see her be sealed to her parents and what a joyful day that will be! We are going to celebrate!!!![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
