posted
I read with interest Brother Card's article. His apparent conclusion is that there is no "R-rated commandment". His justification for that conclusion is that all comments referring to the avoiding "R-rated Movies" come from comments discussing Pornography.
First, Brother Card is out of place criticizing leaders of a Ward or Stake who are counseling their members on actions that ought to be taken. That is simply not the order of things for faithful members of the Church. Shame on him for such behavior and shame on those who question and criticize their own leaders. One is reminded of David while being pursued by King Saul. While King Saul clearly unrighteously sought David's life, David still revered him, even until Death, as the Lord's annointed.
Second, if not explicitly commanded to avoid "R" rated movies, implicitly, that is the commandment. Brother Card can split hairs all day and night, the fact of the matter is that the comments of the brethren are replete with counsel to avoid movies with such ratings. In fact, the counsel found in church literature is to avoid pornographic and violent depictions. If the MPAA subjectively determines that depictions were either violent or pornographic enough to merit the film an "R" rating, isn't that warning enough for us? By the standards of the brethren there are probably many "PG" and "G" rated movies that warrant our boycott because of their violent and/or pornographic depictions.
Third, how does one know that the movie is "okay" unless they see it. An example were the reviews that my Mother-in-law and Father-in-law received of the 1990's PG-13 rated hit "Titanic". After being told what a marvelous movie it was they were horrified to learn that there was a scene with full-frontal nudity. Aren't we better off setting a standard of "How good can I be?" rather than "How bad can I be and still be good?"
Brother Card makes the argument that "The Passion of The Christ" "inspires you to feel gratitude to the Savior and love for those that he loved and who loved him. It inspires you with a dread of and revulsion for Satan and all his ways. It leaves you with a broken heart and a contrite spirit." However, in the paragraph immediately following that he states: "In my review, I specifically said that this film was not for children. The R-rating is exactly appropriate -- unless parents are sure their children are mature enough to deal with powerful scenes of the unspeakable things done to the Savior's body, and accompany them to see it, those children should not be permitted inside the theater."
Brother Card has missed the point of the counsel we have received. We are to avoid viewing not only pornographic video depictions but also violent video depictions. While Brother Card argues that the movie inspires, I would suggest that there is no better testimony builder than the scriptural accounts which deal with the Savior's life. While I appreciate that good art can help turn us to the scriptures, it is ironic to advocate splitting hairs with the counsel of the leaders in order to justify such an experience.
In our family we have a rule that if it is not appropriate viewing for our children it is not appropriate viewing for us. Isn't it wonderful how the Lord does not put an "R" or "PG-13" rating on the materials he produces? He invites all, both old and young.
I hope that the members of that ward and stake the Brother Card speaks heeded the counsel to be obedient to their local leaders rather than to criticize that counsel as Brother Card advocated. If they did, their testimonies were strengthened more than they could have been by viewing 100 movies of the caliber of "The Passion of The Christ".
When I logged onto this site and noted that it was a gathering place for members of the church I had hoped that I would find stories, articles and comments that encourage obedience and faithfulness to church leaders not a place where they are criticized. I hope that Brother Card's comments are a rarity on this site.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:When I logged onto this site and noted that it was a gathering place for members of the church I had hoped that I would find stories, articles and comments that encourage obedience and faithfulness to church leaders not a place where they are criticized. I hope that Brother Card's comments are a rarity on this site.
From the charter:
quote: We accept the principle that it is possible for Saints of good will to disagree in their interpretation or understanding of many matters, but we approach all disagreements with humility, knowing that while we prefer our own ideas and feel them to be well-supported by scripture and the prophets, at all times we humbly admit the possibility that our own understanding may be flawed and that further revelation may reveal things that put our present ideas in a completely different perspective. As a principle of courtesy, we assume at all times that everyone is acting for the best of motives.
posted
Perhaps someone else will have more energy and provide links to this previous discussion so that we don't cover the same ground again.
Posts: 10865 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I think the last one was dodoed (deleted by the originator) or maybe sweetened (deleted by the moderator). However, there is definitely more than one. In fact, I had a sense of deja vu reading Raymond's opening post.
posted
I think we should go ahead and discuss this topic in detail. I foresee another go-round between The Mormonator and Pink Floyd. We could call it "Smackdown 23" (actually, I'm not sure about the number--that may be a little low).
[\announcer's voice] In this corner we have The Mormonator with a quote from Brigham Young about the need to study evil.
In the opposite corner we have Pink Floyd with a quote from Ezra Taft Benson addressed to the youth about avoiding R rated movies.
LLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEETSSSSSSSSSS GET READY TO RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMBBBLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEE!!!!!!!
posted
There are some other things I wanted to say, but I'm in a hurry so I'll just leave it at this for now.
quote: In our family we have a rule that if it is not appropriate viewing for our children it is not appropriate viewing for us. Isn't it wonderful how the Lord does not put an "R" or "PG-13" rating on the materials he produces? He invites all, both old and young.
So because Gospel Doctrine class is inappropriate for children adults shouldn't go? (add other similar situations as you see fit. i.e. mission, temple, prep for marriage classes) Sorry if that sounds rude or snarky, that's not how I mean it. I just think there are things that are appropriate and good for adults that are inappropriate for others.
This is something my wife and I discuss regularly. But more as to whether we should OWN the movies rather than watch them. There are several movies that she is perfectly willing to let me borrow and will watch with me, but she doesn't want them in our collection.
I think the real issue is this: If you want to place extra restrictions on yourself and your family to protect yourself that is fine and admirable. But we shouldn't expect others to take that approach to life.
Posts: 22 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dang, I need to learn to think and type faster. I thought I was going to be the first response here. Posts: 22 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'll address a part of the post that is not directly on the dreaded topic
quote:First, Brother Card is out of place criticizing leaders of a Ward or Stake who are counseling their members on actions that ought to be taken. That is simply not the order of things for faithful members of the Church. Shame on him for such behavior and shame on those who question and criticize their own leaders. One is reminded of David while being pursued by King Saul. While King Saul clearly unrighteously sought David's life, David still revered him, even until Death, as the Lord's annointed.
Do you think it is possible to recognize errors in a leader's behavior while still sustaining him in his position? Particularly if you do not single out individual leaders as having made mistakes, but instead discuss general principles that you feel should govern a good leader's behavior?
If our imperfect human leaders are never allowed to hear constructive counsel, how will they ever improve and grow? I would never justify backbiting or gossip or mutinous, poisonous sorts of behavior, but seriously, we can't just pretend our leaders are perfect, either. That doesn't help anyone. If I recognize that my leader has made a mistake, and work to help him correct it, that is not something I should be "ashamed" of, particularly if I truly strive to do it in a Christlike way.
While Card typically speaks in hyperbolic terms, your harsh condemnation of him is still several steps out of line.
Posts: 806 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Raymond wrote, "When I logged onto this site and noted that it was a gathering place for members of the church I had hoped that I would find stories, articles, and comments that encourage obedience and faithfulness to church leaders not a place where they are criticized." I find plenty of comments that encourage obedience and faithfulness here. Did you read the article and then register without reading anything else at all? I don't hold the same view that OSC holds on R-rated movies, but I would never say "shame on him" as you have. He is our host here and I believe that if this topic is discussed at all, it should be done without heaping shame on anyone. Thank you.
Posts: 4056 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Oh, I couldn't pass this one up, though ...
quote:Isn't it wonderful how the Lord does not put an "R" or "PG-13" rating on the materials he produces? He invites all, both old and young.
Actually, I think that is a brilliant citation of one reason why the MPAA rating is not always a good place to draw your moral lines.
The Lord doesn't label His teachings. The Song of Solomon, the story of Lot, the slaughter of the Canaanites, and the slaying of Laban are bound in the same covers as the rest of the scripture, with no parental warnings whatsoever. I think that the Lord expects us to use good judgment in evaluating the scriptures, to guide our children's introduction to them, and to generally be smart and morally conscious about how we read His words.
On a similar note, we don't teach primary lessons about the importance of chastity and the lines we do not cross, but we DO teach those lessons to the youth. Why? Because young children are not ready for frank discussions about sex. Does that mean that none of us are? On the contrary, our youth NEED to know about such things, or they will enter the world woefully unprepared to face temptation and its consequences.
Anyway, my point is, the MPAA rating is an easy place to draw the line for yourself if you wish to. But I personally suspect that the Lord intends for His people to be more attentive and discerning than that. And I don't think that He sent us to this world intending for us to never be exposed to anything "bad". It isn't the exposure that harms us. The exposure is part of why we're here. It's how we learn good from evil. In the end, it is the meaning and personal change that we draw from it that makes the difference to our salvation.
Being an undiscerning consumer of the arts is a bad thing, and it can lead a malleable mind down all kinds of unsavory paths. But when a member of the Church chooses to view an R-rated movie because as a discerning, moral individual, he has found THIS movie to meet the Lord's standard, then it it not your place to condemn him as you have.
[ September 30, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: The Mormonator ]
Posts: 806 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
what does the that^^^ mean? is that referring to osc?
He owns the domain "nauvoo.com" and either owns or pays the rent for the server this forum uses. So whether you agree with him or not, coming here and blasting him is like going to a free party and criticising the host because you don't like the color of his shirt. (Gotta work that one in somehow.)
Posts: 583 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm amused at the horrific report of Titanic presenting full frontal nudity.
My recollection of the scene I imagine is referred to by the opening post (I have to wonder, since I confess to succumbing to the slumber that the entire movie inspired) was of a half-draped woman posing for a painting.
Horrors. Alarms. I'm destined, apparently, to a hereafter alongside Dr. Faustus.
posted
In my opinion, the two posts preceding this one should be edited in some more acceptable manner.
Posts: 4056 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
*liked Titanic* *saw it 4 times in theaters and 9 times with her friend whose dad was a member of the Academy at their house before it came out on videotape*
*then again, wasn't a member of the Church at the time*
*still made her husband watch it with her*
Posts: 8147 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
And we're worried about her nude scene, and the MPAA rating. Can you see why I fear for our future as a culture, when despite the teachings of the prophets, we still seem incapable of judging a story on its merits and its meaning, rather than its cover?
Posts: 806 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
dillfest
unregistered
posted
I liked it, but ONLY for having Leonardo di Craprio die. Heck, it should have been edited down to that, the rest wasn't worth watching...
IP: Logged |
dillfest
unregistered
posted
"We need to develop the capacity to form judgments of our own about the value of ideas, opportunities, or people who may come into our lives. We won't always have the security of knowing whether a certain idea is "Church approved," because new ideas don't always come along with little tags attached to them saying whether they have been reviewed at Church headquarters. Whether in the form of music, books, friends, or opportunities to serve, there is much that is lovely, of good report, and praiseworthy that is not the subject of detailed discussion in Church manuals or courses of instruction. Those who will not risk exposure to experiences that are not obviously related to some Church word or program will, I believe, live less abundant and meaningful lives than the Lord intends."
Elder Hafen, "“Dealing with Uncertainty,” in The Believing Heart.
further, I wonder if Raymond has the same criticism for Robert Millett, the former Dean of the BYU Religion department for watching The Passion and liking it? See here for his thoughts pre-viewing? ( I haven't been able to relocate his post-viewing thoughts, but I remember him endorsing the film.)
36 And also the Lord shall have apower over his bsaints, and shall creign in their dmidst, and shall come down in ejudgment upon fIdumea , or the world.
37 aSearch these bcommandments, for they are true and cfaithful, and the prophecies and dpromises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my aword shall not pass away, but shall all be bfulfilled, whether by mine own cvoice or by the dvoice of my eservants, it is the fsame.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the btruth abideth forever and ever. Amen.
i could not even begin to tell you it. we have been warned not to watch it and if the words of the Prophets are of God than they are SCRIPTURE
posted
Would it be possible to quote those lines without all the extra characters? It's kind of hard to read ...
Posts: 806 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
"when a member of the Church chooses to view an R-rated movie because as a discerning, moral individual, he has found THIS movie to meet the Lord's standard, then it it not your place to condemn him as you have."
WHAT ???????
A rated R movie that meets the Lords standards??
We counsel you, young men, not to pollute your minds with such degrading matter, for the mind through which this filth passes is never the same afterwards. Don't see R-rated movies or vulgar videos or participate in any entertainment that is immoral, suggestive, or pornographic. Don't listen to music that is degrading." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.222)
"It is very unreasonable to suppose that exposure to profanity, nudity, sex, and violence has no negative effects on us. We can't roll around in the mud without getting dirty. It is a concern that some of our young Latter-day Saints, as well as their parents, regularly watch R-rated and other inappropriate movies and videos. One more reason why the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice.(3 Ne. 9:2)'' (October 1996 General Conference, see The Savior Is Counting On You)
"I know it is hard counsel we give when we say movies that are R-rated, and many with PG-13 ratings, are produced by satanic influences. Our standards should not be dictated by the rating system. I repeat, because of what they really represent, these types of movies, music, tapes, etc. serve the purposes of the author of all darkness." (Ensign Nov. 1993, p.43)
You will notice in all 3 quotes is does NOT say to abstain from only rated R movies that contain bad material. It says to abstain from rated R movies AND other inappropiate material.
Posts: 13 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I love quoting scriptures, too. And I find one of the best places to copy them from is lds.org, because of the search feature. However, copying them from lds.org takes extra effort, because you need to go through and delete all of the extra superscripts, which were now copied as normal letters. It makes the reading go much smoother.
It is generally wise to read older threads on a forum before engaging in a scathing condemnation of everyone that participates here. When I read through some of the old threads and watch the progression of the thoughts and discussions, I see scriptures, quotes from modern prophets, modern research, law, medicine, science, humanities, prayer, personal experiences, and all sorts of things combined together in a discussion of issues and events that effect our lives.
Things may be said that I don't agree with, but this is a very big church, and everyone is learning at their own pace and rates. The founding charter is very well written and governs the principles we use in this forum. Those that participate here do believe the fundamentals of the church and are very supportive of their local church units as well as the world-wide church.
[ October 01, 2005, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Jason ]
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Rox, the problem with making blanket condemnations of other people is the fact that you are almost never in a position to understand why they made the choices they made, or how they might be justified.
To take an extreme example, if you had witnessed Nephi's slaying of Laban, you would probably have condemned him as a murderer and a robber, because you would have had no means of knowing how he came to his decision.
But you would have been wrong. Similarly, when another individual seems to interpret a rule differently from you, yet is clearly very conscientious in their choices, it is typically not your place to condemn or scorn them for it. An attempt at understanding is usually a better approach.
For example, in the case above, you might have asked me what standard I meant, rather than trying to bludgeon me with a quote. No single quote represents the entirety of the Lord's or the Church's position on any subject, so laying one down like a trump card doesn't really win an argument. All it does is look like a slap in the face.
[ October 01, 2005, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: The Mormonator ]
Posts: 806 | Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Special charming note to RaymondVG, Roxygss, and wpjtrueldsgirl:
You are all pretty new around here. You don't know that this topic has been discussed a lot and with some rancor in the past -- but mostly people here have learned to discuss topics without anger, accusation, and "holier-than-thou" attitudes. I know you are newly excited about the topic -- but most of the people here are just worn out.
I am not telling you that you cannot continue the discussion. I AM telling you that unless you go back and re-read the charter and come back to the discussion with a much more meek and humble attitude, it will be shut down. I assure you that shutting down discussions is my least favorite thing (no wait - that would be banning members.)
We welcome you here -- but please try to be members who add to the spirit of love and cooperation in this community instead of adding a spirit of contention. And in the end -- you will never convince everyone to agree with you -- you must be able to respect others who disagree with you. If you can do that -- you might even learn something that adds to your life.
posted
Wow, I have only been on the this forum for maybe 48 hours and I think I've had enough.
It seems like this is not a place to really learn truths of the gospel. More like a place to find justifications for our interpretations of the gospel and then be expected to get a pat on the back for it.
In several other subjects, false doctrine is never challenged, and when it is, we are told that we can't judge someone else's position.
This GRAY area you want to live in is not of GOD. God had made judgemets on right and wrong and expects us to seek them out, learn them, and then abide by them.
I WILL JUDGE, anyone who contradicts the Lords annoited. Of course I will be slammed for offending someones "choice". This is such utter nonsense, and this is my last post here.
posted
I love posts like that. "I've not been here long enough to form any sort of informed opinion of the residents, but you're all horrible anyway! Horrible!"
quote:I love quoting scriptures, too. And I find one of the best places to copy them from is lds.org, because of the search feature. However, copying them from lds.org takes extra effort, because you need to go through and delete all of the extra superscripts, which were now copied as normal letters. It makes the reading go much smoother.
quote: I have only been on the this forum for maybe 48 hours and I think I've had enough.
So have we.
quote:Third, how does one know that the movie is "okay" unless they see it.
One exerts a bit of effort to find out: one reads lots of reviews. One asks one's friends, both in real life and on message boards. One consults trusted movie screening sites. If movies are important to one, one has many options in this regard. Posts: 1366 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: I WILL JUDGE, anyone who contradicts the Lords annoited.
Of course you will, dear. Just promise me you'll do so righteously, if you can.
quote: This is such utter nonsense, and this is my last post here.
Whatever. Until you're ready to talk with the grown-ups, that's probably for the best. I'll bet we see you trolling around again before too long, though.
Posts: 227 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Heck, it should have been edited down to that, the rest wasn't worth watching...
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
