quote: It seems like more and more, people are always trying to find excuses not to do the things we have been commanded to do.
This thought reminded me of a speaker at Women's Conference (pretty sure it was Johanna Flynn). She was talking about how we make excuses about why we do and do not do certain things. Then she summed it with, "you are excusing yourself right out of exaltation."
That is how my notes read, so the exact wording may be a bit different. A thought provoking statement, none-the-less.
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No they need to stay pure, they don't take in anything that will put them not in harmony with their bodies and nature.
I wanted to be a shogun, until i realized i would have needed to have grown up 500 years ago and need to be Japanese
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Ok, so I'm a new member of the church and I'm sure it's been discussed, but since the people in the book of mormon were more than likely Native Americans, doesn't "hot drinks" as it says, sound a lot like, "fire water" to you? Like as in Whiskey? I know it was interpreted as meaning tea though. So although I love sweet tea, we haven't drank it in months.
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Hey, Okmama, welcome to Nauvoo. Hot drinks has been defined as tea and coffee, although your thought was very interesting.
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quote: It is widely accepted that herbal teas are allowed. -------------------------------------------------
Ahh... There's the problem...
That's what I was thinking. In everything I remember seeing from an official church source only the word "tea" has been used. Someone can correct me on that if you have seen it. I realize that individuals, including mission presidents, may have clarified that, but still unless I've seen it written from the church I would be leery of using it as a guide.
It is possible that "infusions" are alright though dictionary.com says that an infusion is a tea. So who knows?
So this is what I figure. If you feel an infusion or herbal tea is ok for whatever reason that is between you and the Lord.
The handbook tells us that tithing is 10% or our increase. That no one should teach as doctrine anything more specific. My thought is that no one should teach as doctrine anything more specific than tea is a part of the WoW. You can share your feelings, but not teach it as doctrine.
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quote: So this is what I figure. If you feel an infusion or herbal tea is ok for whatever reason that is between you and the Lord.
Why in the world would a person come that that conclusion?
From a natural healing point of view: So does this actually mean that the part of the WOW that teaches herbs are good for man is void? Mostly I use herbs as an infusion when medicinally needed because I enjoy my hobby as an herbalist. How else is one to use herbs in the dead of winter? Chewing on a mouthful of dried herbs is nasty. As far as other herbal delivery systems, making a tincture involves pure grain alcohol and a ton more fresh herb than I want to harvest. I am lazy, drying is the easiest for me.
The one and only time (before today) I ever heard a member question the use of herbs as a tea, tisane or infusion I was flabbergasted. Back in Joseph's time, they did not have the abundance of made made poisons, excuse me, chemical medicines we can access. Herbal medicine was part of every household's skill set, and it was common as dirt to know what herb to use for what...
[ May 19, 2006, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: jana at jade house ]
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quote: What about "Mormon tea" which was used by the Mormon Pioneers?
jana said:
quote:Back in Joseph's time, they did not have the abundance of made made poisons, excuse me, chemical medicines we can access. Herbal medicine was part of every household's skill set, and it was common as dirt to know what herb to use for what...
The "acceptance of herbal teas" in the Word of Wisdom is a very grey area. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism says this under the heading of "Tea::
quote:Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.4, TEA
Devout Latter-day Saints do not drink teas containing caffeine. This practice derives from an 1833 revelation known as the Word of Wisdom, which states that "hot drinks are not for the body or the belly" (D&C 89:9). Hyrum Smith, Assistant President of the Church, later defined "hot drinks" as coffee and tea (T&S 3 [June 1, 1842]:800), thereby establishing the official interpretation for later generations (see Doctrine and Covenants: Section 89). Caffeine, a cerebral and cardiovascular stimulant, has caused health concerns in recent years. The revelation has not been interpreted as proscribing herbal teas, for it states that "all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the Constitution, nature, and use of man" (D&C 89:10).
Now, the E of M is one of those publications that people tend to accept when it supports their position and to "question" as "non-doctrinal" when it does not. But it is a pretty good guide as to current policy. "Proscribing" means "outlawing." (I had to look it up to make sure.)
So, certainly herbal teas seem to be acceptable. Therefore, jana correctly argues
quote:From a natural healing point of view: So does this actually mean that the part of the WOW that teaches herbs are good for man is void?
Herbs when used correctly are good for man. However, there also the scripture in D&C 59:20 where we are cautioned to use herbs "with caution and good judgement." As I said: a grey area.
quote: Ephedra, popularly known in the western U.S. as “desert tea,” “Mormon tea,” “squaw tea,” or “Mexican tea,” contains no harmful alkaloids but is high in vitamin C. If taken in large quantities it decreases the heart rate and thus may decrease blood pressure. Earlier claims that it helped treat venereal disease and sore throats are probably unfounded. It is important, however, not to confuse the North American Ephedra with the Chinese Ephedra, Ma Huang, which contains a large quantity of ephedrine, a salt of an alkaloid which strongly stimulates the nerves and thus should be used only as a drug under a doctor’s care.
All this I say in support of yungmom's statement
quote: So this is what I figure. If you feel an infusion or herbal tea is ok for whatever reason that is between you and the Lord.
I think what she is saying is that it is a personal decision which means I cannot make it for you and you cannot make it for me. Someone like me who doesn't want to take the time to study every commercial "blend" of tea to see what the effect of each ingredient on the body happens to be, and if each ingredient is on the "good" list or the "bad" list shouldn't be looked down upon for their position that "tea is bad." At the same time, someone like jana who studies these things out, and brews her own concoctions of spearmint leaves and dandelion roots should be allowed to do that as well. It is simply using "good judgement" for your personal situation.
However, when brewing your teas, just don't wear a pointy hat and chant "boil, boil, trouble and toil" when you do it. That would look bad.
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quote:However, when brewing your teas, just don't wear a pointy hat and chant "boil, boil, trouble and toil" when you do it. That would look bad.
But I look really cute in that hat. It goes great with my midnight blue platforms with the little glitter moons.
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Herbs are drugs and can have strong effects on the body. They are teaching us in medical school to ask what about vitamins and supplements when we ask about medications, because they will interact in strong ways. Mormon Tea had ephedrine in it, which probably made the drinkers feel much better, no matter their malady. It didn't heal them, only gave them a sort of "high" for a while. The same is true with many common "herbal" remedies. They don't heal, they just make you feel better for a little while. Consider Lydia Pinkham, aka Lily the Pink (1819-1883). She used to sell a vegetable "medicinal tonic" that claimed to cure most everything. It did make them feel much better. Probably because it was 40 proof (20% alcohol).
Our pharmacology theme song is the bar song "Lily the Pink". (And my Pharm final is in 20 minutes...why am I here? I have been studying all morning and all last week and needed a little bit of a mind relaxer.)
Be careful with those herbal products, they can be quite potent with strong drugs.
[ May 19, 2006, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Jason ]
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Good luck on your final, Jason! All that studying should pay off.
Our local clinic now has one or two herbalists that work with the doctors for those patients that would rather take a natural medication than a synthetic one. I love that concept! I wish more doctors would embrace the philosophy that herbs really ARE medications. Back in the day, doctors used to use herbs and what not themselves, to create the meds. Pharmacy? What pharmacy? I'd love to see us get back to the use of herbs and natural meds a bit more.
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I just wanted to respond to your "firewater" aka Whiskey theory...
It is a good conclusion, but the Native Americans(NAs) didn't even have such a thing until well over a thousand years after the Book of Mormon was compiled and hid-up. The NAs didn't brew or distill their own liquor, they didn't get exposed to "fire water" until white man came to the Americas.
I also HAVE to agree with jana whole heartedly with the natural herbs and that "infusions" are just fine and even helpful. Most OTC drugs are indeed Chemical Poison concoctions! Also as was mentioned b4, Hot drinks are condemmed in the D&C.
quote: Herbs are drugs and can have strong effects on the body.
Agree, with this, I do.
quote: The same is true with many common "herbal" remedies. They don't heal, they just make you feel better for a little while.
Disagree with this, I do. Just where do drug companies get much of their ingrediants from? Extracts from plants.
Asprin is an extract from willow root. When you take asprin its always an irritant for the stomache. The level of irritation is usually so insignificant (if taken with suggested dosing) that the benefit outweighs the negative. But, if you take willow root, its negative effects don't occur at all.
This is not to say that modern medicine doesn't have its place. The analogy I use is that modern medicine is like a sledgehammer, gets the job done quicker and faster, but their's a higher risk of collateral damage (side effects to use modern vernacular). Herbal medicine is like a tack hammer that gently assists the body in healing itself. However, sometimes the strength of the tack hammer isn't enough.
BTW, the primary gain in longevity is modern birth technology. If a person dies at child birth, their age when added to the average weighs heavily upon the average. So, using that as an argument against returning to only herbal medicine is not reasonable. Besides, has anyone advocated not using modern medicine when its apropriate to do so?
Sorry FBN, but I just had to do a silent giggle when I read that... A combination Yoda and Dr. Seuss it was. Posts: 2402 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:The NAs didn't brew or distill their own liquor, they didn't get exposed to "fire water" until white man came to the Americas.
Moroni, I politely disagree. To assume any people who is without the gospel does not have or use some sort of intoxicating substances, even mild, is too general an assumption. I agree, that they may not have been exposed to "fire water" until European's started to come, but that could also just mean their individual tribal cultures did not have the technology, know how, or time and resources to brew or distill to the same potency. I think there were actually some alcoholic beverages that were adopted by the Europeans that they learned about from the Native Americans on a regional basis... think Mexico.
Also, in reference to okmama's statement, as others have said, the "hot drinks" is mentioned in Doctrine and Covnenants. But, The Book of Mormon does indicate anecdotally several times that the Lamanites and Nephites had and used some sort of technology to create alcoholic beverages, even if it was just fermentation into wine. In fact, both sides used it as weapon against each other during times of warfare (Lamanites to try and poison Nephites, and Nephites to get guards so drunk the pass out to free POW's and civilian captives from the Lamanites).
quote: The analogy I use is that modern medicine is like a sledgehammer, gets the job done quicker and faster, but their's a higher risk of collateral damage (side effects to use modern vernacular). Herbal medicine is like a tack hammer that gently assists the body in healing itself. However, sometimes the strength of the tack hammer isn't enough.
There are some herbal remedies that I use and like. But I think it is wrong to characterize them as gently assisting my body to heal itself. Willow bark is as foreign to my body as ibuprofen. Neither are "natural" in my body.
Further there are some "natural" things that can do tremendous damage. There are herbs that cause abortions. They do not gently assist the body in healing, they perform the function determined by their chemical makeup. In that particular case, they can end a healthy pregnancy. Not because they are helping the body heal, but because that is what they do.
And as my favorite chemist reminds me, the herbal remedies are as full of chemicals as the created compounds. Because they are a basic building block of the world. The water you drink is a chemical compound.
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Wow catherder, I was in the process of writing this exact point. I had to check something else out, came back and you beat me to it .
It's true that North America didn't have distilling technology (most of that came from Persia in the 1300's with the Alambic... don't ask me why I know that, please ), but they were making an equivalent of Mead with honey and a drink called octli was made in the Chechimecha region of Mexico for thousands of years by fermenting agave and peyotl in large urns. It was given to sacrificial victims prior to their jumping into cenotes or getting their hearts cut out (likely guessing they would be so buzzed they wouldn't care).
Posts: 1885 | Registered: Aug 2005
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That's cool cat, I just remember discussing it in seminary long ago, and that most North American NAs didnt use or even have distilled beverages.
I guess I was responding to a hypothetical idea about the mention of Hot Drinks.
only in the W o W does it mention the revelation to not use such
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So, when Weird Al rips his heart out of his rib cage and throws it on the floor and stomps on it til he dies (ah!), is he smashed or sober? Posts: 2402 | Registered: Oct 2005
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More telling, what state is he in when he pulls out his intestines with a fork (I love that song )?
Posts: 1885 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote: I think there were actually some alcoholic beverages that were adopted by the Europeans that they learned about from the Native Americans on a regional basis... think Mexico
Also think "Book of Mormon" (Mosiah 22: 7-10 eg)
quote: ...And king Limhi caused that his people should gather their flocks together; and he sent the tribute of wine to the Lamanites...
FlyByNight said:
quote: Besides, has anyone advocated not using modern medicine when its apropriate to do so?
To me, when jana said this:
quote: they did not have the abundance of ma(n) made poisons, excuse me, chemical medicines we can access.
it comes pretty close.
quote:BTW, the primary gain in longevity is modern birth technology. If a person dies at child birth, their age when added to the average weighs heavily upon the average. So, using that as an argument against returning to only herbal medicine is not reasonable.
Thank you for clearing that up for me. So how come (according to the chart) someone who is 10 in 1830 has an expectancy of 48 more years, while someone who is 10 in 2003 has an expectancy of 66 years if as you say, birth technology is the "primary factor?"
Pink Floyd: who admits a severe lack of knowledge when it comes to statistics, as well as many other things...
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quote: There are some herbal remedies that I use and like. But I think it is wrong to characterize them as gently assisting my body to heal itself. Willow bark is as foreign to my body as ibuprofen. Neither are "natural" in my body.
Further there are some "natural" things that can do tremendous damage.
Didn't mean to imply that herbs are a natural part of the body. But, I don't think I did, did I?
What I intended is that herbs are less likely to cause collateral damage.
But then were you saying that herbs can be misused and can be very harmful? If so, I definitly agree.
Posts: 10944 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Thinking this is not the place for a math lesson. BTW, do you have a link to this chart of which you speak? I'm always (well maybe its just quite often) interested in historical statistics.
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quote:The analogy I use is that modern medicine is like a sledgehammer, gets the job done quicker and faster, but their's a higher risk of collateral damage (side effects to use modern vernacular). Herbal medicine is like a tack hammer that gently assists the body in healing itself. However, sometimes the strength of the tack hammer isn't enough.
I tend to look at this in the opposite light. From the Greeks through the middle ages, the herbal products were mixed together, which combined thousands of various chemicals, each with many different effects on the body. A key turning point in modern medicine was when we started focusing on pure substances rather than unknown combinations.
This allows for repeatable experiementation of the drugs, so that we can statistically know the effects the drugs will have on a person, plus most of the non-statistical side effects (meaning not so common). With most herbal supplements, you have no idea what you are really getting, and each batch will work differently on different people.
But, if it works for you, then it works for you.
Pregnant ladies should especially beware, because many of the common herbal supplements have been associated with higher risks of spontaneous abortions. After my pathology final in 2 hours (the last one for my first year) I'll look up some of those supplements.
[ May 19, 2006, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Jason ]
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Thanks, I think the most telling thing about those statistics is that early on, the life expectancy gain early in life is far greater then recently.
1850 - Life for a newborn white male was 38.3, but a ten year in 1850 could expect to live to 58.0 a dramatic increase indicative of a high infant mortality. Also note that as a person ages beyond 10 their expectancy does not increase very far beyond 60 or so.
2003 - A newborn white male is expected to live to 75.4, while a ten year old was expected to live to 76.0, a difference of less then one year.
I was going to say this earlier, but I would have been made wild speculations based on my own assumptions. But this chart leads me to believe that my assumptions are closer to the truth:
I assert that it appears to me that if we eliminated every aspect of modern medicine except for our infant care, immunizations, emergency room care (broken bones and like accidents), and anti-biotic treatments, life expectancy would change by less then 5 years.
BTW, did I miss something? I'm not seeing where you posted the link to this chart in this thread.
Next -
I can understand that point of view from a traditionally trained doctor. But then, I also add the knowledge that out modern research techniques used by pharmaceutical companies are not being applied to herbs. Its illegal for a drug company to patent an herb (or any natural substance for that matter) They can at best patent an extraction. So, there is no profit and therefore no motive for them to be researched.
Also, herb companies are going to do as little research as possible and mostly rely on folklore in order to maximize their profit.
If we could apply the same research to herbs that are being invested in extractions and formulations, I would not be the least bit surprised if herbs were found to be better then many modern treatments.
BTW, isn't it possible that herbal folklore is information that originated with God? And has since been handed down and become what we now call folklore?
Edit to insert words I thought, but did not type. Am I the only that does this?
quote: I assert that it appears to me that if we eliminated every aspect of modern medicine except for our infant care, immunizations, emergency room care (broken bones and like accidents), and anti-biotic treatments, life expectancy would change by less then 5 years.
That is a pretty bold assertion. That means you throw out all geriatric care, all cancer treatments, all blood pressure treatment, all care for diseases like diabetes, etc., all surgeries like heart, lung, etc., all pulmonary care, and so on and so on. It is not worth arguing about, but I think you are very wrong. Just look to third world countries for an example.
quote:BTW, did I miss something? I'm not seeing where you posted the link to this chart in this thread.
Yeah, you missed it. It is in my post right after jana's near the top of this page. Not that it matters...
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), but they were making an equivalent of Mead with honey and a drink called octli was made in the Chechimecha region of Mexico for thousands of years by fermenting agave and peyotl in large urns. It was given to sacrificial victims prior to their jumping into cenotes or getting their hearts cut out (likely guessing they would be so buzzed they wouldn't care).
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