posted
Anyone remember Pres. Hinckley's original 1998 "To the Boys and To the Men" talk? I've carried it with me for the better part of a decade.
quote:Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order.
He went on to talk about the pitiful state of consumer debt, how debt enslaves us, how the average American is up to his knees in credit card debt.
quote:I recognize that it may be necessary to borrow to get a home, of course. But let us buy a home that we can afford and thus ease the payments which will constantly hang over our heads without mercy or respite for as long as 30 years.
No one knows when emergencies will strike. I am somewhat familiar with the case of a man who was highly successful in his profession. He lived in comfort. He built a large home. Then one day he was suddenly involved in a serious accident. Instantly, without warning, he almost lost his life. He was left a cripple. Destroyed was his earning power. He faced huge medical bills. He had other payments to make. He was helpless before his creditors. One moment he was rich, the next he was broke.
quote:We are carrying a message of self-reliance throughout the Church. Self-reliance cannot obtain when there is serious debt hanging over a household. One has neither independence nor freedom from bondage when he is obligated to others.
In managing the affairs of the Church, we have tried to set an example. We have, as a matter of policy, stringently followed the practice of setting aside each year a percentage of the income of the Church against a possible day of need.
I am grateful to be able to say that the Church in all its operations, in all its undertakings, in all of its departments, is able to function without borrowed money. If we cannot get along, we will curtail our programs. We will shrink expenditures to fit the income. We will not borrow.
quote:President Faust would not tell you this himself. Perhaps I can tell it, and he can take it out on me afterward. He had a mortgage on his home drawing 4 percent interest. Many people would have told him he was foolish to pay off that mortgage when it carried so low a rate of interest. But the first opportunity he had to acquire some means, he and his wife determined they would pay off their mortgage. He has been free of debt since that day. That’s why he wears a smile on his face, and that’s why he whistles while he works.
I urge you, brethren, to look to the condition of your finances. I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage.
Gee - let's think a minute. One out of every ten mortgages in America is in default. We're in the middle of the biggest financial crisis since the great depression. The govt is considering unprecidented bailouts that will significantly increase our national debt, and may or may not end the crisis. Yelling about it now will do no good. Wouldn't it have been nice if someone, say a prophet, had spoken strongly on the subject a decade ago?
quote:If you have paid your debts, if you have a reserve, even though it be small, then should storms howl about your head, you will have shelter for your wives and children and peace in your hearts. That’s all I have to say about it, but I wish to say it with all the emphasis of which I am capable.
Ten years ago. (Well, 9 years, 11 months, and 2 weeks ago to be specific.)
posted
Yep, of course since those who pay heed to the Prophet are a very very small subset of the population of this country, and add in the fact that He specifically did not speak strongly on the subject, he even started the talk with a caveat that it was just his advice. Which all combined to mean it was largely ignored.
To bad he didn't speak prohectically, especially against falling for predatory lending practices, he might have gotten a few more members to pay heed. Of course it didn't help that Utah's version of the housing bubble was mostly fed from outside. i.e. As long as people could sell in CA and buy a mansion four times as large with hundreds of thousands left over, they kept coming to Utah.
Eventually the markets in other states crapped out enough and Utah's prices peaked high enough to cut-off most of that pressure which allowed Utah to finally experience a slow-down much later than the rest of the country.
Actually a very large portion of those in trouble were probably convinced they were making good investments in the purchase of a home(an area where the brethren have always said debt was acceptable). Where the problem lies was in the predetory lenders who could spin a sale smoothly enough to even fool smart buyers into thinking they could afford the amounts they were borrowing.
Janey and I are very glad we found the house we did when we were shopping, we paid less than we wanted to and even less than I could easily afford to finance. As such, my monthly housing allowance from the military pays or just about pays the mortgage(it's within a few dollars each month depending on the taxes.)
Posts: 2912 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I'm not about to say that I'm anything special or that somehow I'm better at heeding the counsel given, but I had a really strong feeling that I needed to bite the bullet and do whatever I had to to pay off our mortgage before the end of 2007. I sold a substantial number of stock shares I'd held onto for some years to do that.
Since I've done that, had I still had them, the stock shares themselves would be worth 25% less than what they were when I made that transaction. It also allowed me to basically weather the increases in gas prices and food prices and other increases over the past 10 months. The coolest thing is that the house payment I used to make now goes into ROTH IRA's for mine and Mrs. Madd's retirement and 529 plans for our kids.
Anyone ever wants to ask me about listening to a prophets voice, or listening to the spirit about a prompting regarding this topic (OK, and being yelled at a little bit by Dave Ramsey certainly didn't hurt matters, either ) I have a *real* strong testimony about it right now .
posted
Loudmouth you read my mind. I was scanning the financial headlines during my studies today and thought of President Hinckley's address. I remember a shiver going down my back when he quoted Joseph's interpretation of Pharaoh's dreams, even though he qualified his counsel by saying he was not making any specific predictions. The term "portent of stormy weather" was especially alarming to me.
How will this all turn out is beyond my view. It doesn't look good for the United States nor other members of the world economy. Hang on to your hats folks.
Posts: 258 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I am really hating all of this right now. 10 years ago we were just heading into large amounts of student debt.
Hindsight being 20/20 and all we could have done some of it differently and been more frugal, but while trying to live the counsel to get an education, and have children, and have me, the mother, be at home with them, we accrued a very significant amount of student debt.
We've been working our way out of it for a few years now, but we're nowhere near where we need to be and where the prophet's counsel would have us be as far as debt is concerned.
We have nothing invested in the stock market (except maybe some of my dh's 401k, but we're not really sure at this point), we don't have a mortgage and aren't planning on getting one until the student debt is paid down significantly. I'm not entirely sure how much all of this uproar is going to affect our family specifically.
I'm just sick to my stomach about knowing that this prophetic counsel has been there all along, knowing that we have tried to follow what we can at any given time, but never feeling like it's been enough.
I wish we had a full food storage, but we don't. We've had to use it during these tough first few years of my husband's career.
I wish we had a savings account, ready for emergencies, but we don't.
I just feel insecure and precarious and like I should have known better, but what more could I have done?
Sorry for the unload, I just am really unsettled right now.
Oh, and I just became aware of Dave Ramsey a month or so ago. I think his counsel is great and plan to try to implement his stuff.
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posted
How about this one, from October Conference seven years ago:
quote:Occasions of this kind pull us up sharply to a realization that life is fragile, peace is fragile, civilization itself is fragile. The economy is particularly vulnerable. We have been counseled again and again concerning self-reliance, concerning debt, concerning thrift. So many of our people are heavily in debt for things that are not entirely necessary. When I was a young man, my father counseled me to build a modest home, sufficient for the needs of my family, and make it beautiful and attractive and pleasant and secure. He counseled me to pay off the mortgage as quickly as I could so that, come what may, there would be a roof over the heads of my wife and children. I was reared on that kind of doctrine. I urge you as members of this Church to get free of debt where possible and to have a little laid aside against a rainy day.
We cannot provide against every contingency. But we can provide against many contingencies. Let the present situation remind us that this we should do.
As we have been continuously counseled for more than 60 years, let us have some food set aside that would sustain us for a time in case of need. But let us not panic nor go to extremes. Let us be prudent in every respect. And, above all, my brothers and sisters, let us move forward with faith in the Living God and His Beloved Son.
Great are the promises concerning this land of America. We are told unequivocally that it “is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). This is the crux of the entire matter—obedience to the commandments of God.
The Constitution under which we live, and which has not only blessed us but has become a model for other constitutions, is our God-inspired national safeguard ensuring freedom and liberty, justice and equality before the law.
I do not know what the future holds. I do not wish to sound negative, but I wish to remind you of the warnings of scripture and the teachings of the prophets which we have had constantly before us.
I cannot forget the great lesson of Pharaoh’s dream of the fat and lean kine and of the full and withered stalks of corn.
I cannot dismiss from my mind the grim warnings of the Lord as set forth in the 24th chapter of Matthew.
I am familiar, as are you, with the declarations of modern revelation that the time will come when the earth will be cleansed and there will be indescribable distress, with weeping and mourning and lamentation (see D&C 112:24).
Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. There is so much of the Lord’s work yet to be done. We, and our children after us, must do it.
I can tell you one thing. This "bail out" is going to hurt way more in the long run than letting the companies who acted foolishly fail and those who bought more than they should've to default. We're now on the slippery slope to government owning everything.
quote:Oh, and I just became aware of Dave Ramsey a month or so ago. I think his counsel is great and plan to try to implement his stuff.
That is a great plan. Save 1000 dollars emergency fund, work harder than heck to get out of debt. I've been doing that for years and it has worked wonders.
Posts: 3194 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
That was a good talk. We got out of debt within a year or so of hearing it, with the exception of some mortgage payments we've been pretty debt free since.
We even managed to save some money until last year, when I lost my job and have consequently consumed that increase... pretty much all of it... now...
Anyhow we're now moving to a new job, and hoping to sell our home, and get one in Utah. Since many homes are in foreclosure in Utah, we should be able to get them for dirt-cheap--because we can see what money is owed the bank and offer that... assuming we sell ours... otherwise we'll just hang loose until it sells, cuz with a job we should now be okay to pay the mortgage.
Anyhow... interesting times we live in. I can certainly attest that taking the prophet's council seriously has made our home more stable than others I've known, who've been forced into foreclosure, filed for bankruptcy and have had to move into apartments and leave their home wards, where they were happy.
posted
Melissa, don't feel bad about what has happened in the past, since there's nothing you can do about it except learn from it, right . You *can*, however, make a stand today and take command of what happens tomorrow.
I'm happy to see that you are looking at Ramsey's plan (I'm biased, I like his approach), and I can attest that his methods do work, but it's not easy to implement. Still, if you do implement it, with the requisite "Gazelle Intensity" as he describes, you could be debt free very quickly (or at least a lot more quickly than you might have ever imagined) if you are committed to doing it.
Also, Ramsey is not the only game in town; there's a lot of good information out there in the personal finance blogosphere that helps to distill a lot of this stuff (I'm personally a fan of the Simple Dollar and Get Rich Slowly). there are others, but I like these two because they are two regular guys who talk about their successes and missteps, and their archives are quite informative (lots of great commentary on saving, investing, living frugally, and stretching dollars as far as they can go while still having a life and placing a good focus on contentment).
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Don't feel bad you HAVE followed the prophet's counsel. Using what you have saved and stored for those lean first years is part of why we are counseled to save and store. To get us through lean times. I truly believe as long as we are doing our best to follow the counsel we will be blessed. So you save what you can now, and do your best. And your reserved will get back up. We have been saving and building up our 401 k and our savings. We finally had a nice amount in savings and our AC died beyond repair and the second unit was literally on its last leg. I was just sick about having to deplete our savings tremendously and have it go back to where it was a few years ago until I realized that stuff like that is part of WHY it is important to have savings. So when major expenses come we don't have to go into debt. And we have a plan on how to build it back up as quickly as we can.
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posted
Melissa, don't forget that the prophet also counseled to stay out of debt except for education or a modest home. The prophets understand our world--they understand that it is unlikely that many of us can further our education on our own money.
Because of that talk, I made it a point to get out of debt (except for my house), invest wisely (as much as my wisdom allows) and have a substantial savings for emergency. I also began looking at food storage differently.
I'm not where I would like to be, but I'm content with my choices. I remember when I first read that talk, that I felt the Spirit whisper to me that I NEEDED to listen and obey this prophetic counsel. Very powerful to have that experience.
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posted
Well, I think this may vary from place to place. When I grew up in the East San Francisco Bay Area in the 70's, the average home to be had was about 2800 square feet. Compared to the Peninsula where Mrs. Madd grew up, this was about double the average house size that she knew. Most of the houses she was familiar with were anywhere between 1100 and 1400 square feet.
These are the stats for our house:
Single family 4 beds 2.5 bath 1,740 sqft Lot 5,252 sqft Built in 1956
As far as our town is concerned, this is considered on the larger side. In my old home town, this would be smaller than most of the condo's that are there.
Modest also has different interpretations based on the market you live in. For example, the least expensive single family house (meaning 2 bedrooms or more) I could find in my town is currently listed for $324,888 and has the following stats:
Single family 3 beds 2.0 bath 860 sqft Lot 3,150 sqft Built in 1939
I think that would be considered "modest" by most standards as far as size is concerned. yet if you were to look for a similar house price in, say, Austin, Texas, here's what you can get:
4 beds 3.0 bath 2,321 sqft Built in 2007
I'm using zillow.com to do the comparisons, but the point is, modest means something different depending on the market and area you are in. For many, a modest home and a relatively flat payment would mean that living anywhere in the San Francisco Bay Area would not be possible (and for many, I fully realize it is not possible right now).
posted
I also think modest depends on your personal family situation.
I'm single with no children. Modest for me means something completely different than for my best friend who is married with 5 children. They bought a modest home a couple of years ago. Modest for their standards--way too big and too much money for my standards.
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Morning Edition, September 23, 2008 · Gerry and Cindy Mann of Battle Creek, Mich., have finally found a buyer for their home. After it languished on the market for a year, they decided to put their dollhouse up for sale for $169,000 and throw in the real house for free. The marketing move generated media attention and the Mann's found a buyer. Best of all, they get to keep the dollhouse.
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posted
Last weekend I did an inventory and i found I have at least three months of food storage. At first i was disappointed in myself, but I then resolved to get it up to where it should be.
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quote: Last weekend I did an inventory and i found I have at least three months of food storage. At first i was disappointed in myself , but I then resolved to get it up to where it should be.
But that is a good start. You have taken steps to be obedient, now just make it part of your lifestyle. Not everyone can rush out and buy up their year supply all at once...in fact, most people can not do that. As I teach my ward preparedness principles I remind them that they are making a lifestyle change and to work at it, at the pace they are honestly capable of. I use the eating an elephant analogy (one bite at at a time). The Lord will bless you for an honest effort...whatever that effort is in your own home.
posted
I have a question about debt. If the prospect of paying off a mortgage on a house is unlikely because the debt is so high and the payments only really meet the interest payment each month, would it be better to sell the house and rent?
At least in renting one would be free of debt. Any equity from the sale would also provide funds for food store purchase and other emergencies in the future.
What think ye?
[ September 23, 2008, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Robin Hood ]
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posted
It is never prudent to be in a mortgage you can't afford.
That is why we rent. In renting we are able to pay off debt, build a (small) food storage (we don't have room for anything more than "small") and live below our means.
It means that 5 of us live in a 2 bedroom, 945 square foot apartment, don't have our own washer and dryer, and a few other minor inconveniences.
The security we have knowing we're going to be able to pay all our bills each month is priceless.
Posts: 8148 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Robin Hood if you have an interest only loan then yes you are better off just renting. Of course the problem right now is how to get out of the interest only situation.
It's getting very difficult to get financing to either refinance into a non-interest only situation, or for others to get financing to buy your house.
Now, one question though, is your loan really interest only, or is it just so new that the vast majority of your payments go to interest rather than principal. If it's the latter, adding just a few dollars each month to your payment can have amazing effects on the life of your loan. Early on in a loan it can be depressing because you pay and pay and pay, your your prinicpal goes down so very slowly. But with the way interest works, every dollar you add now will take hundreds and even thousands off the total cost of the loan. (I took almost six months off my last car loan by only paying 11 dollars more a month (I picked a nice even number to round it to that equaled 11 dollars)
One other thing. Shane said:
quote: I can tell you one thing. This "bail out" is going to hurt way more in the long run than letting the companies who acted foolishly fail and those who bought more than they should've to default.
Not even close. If we let those businesses fail, the great depression will look like a little bump in the road. Back then the majority of Americans had farms and gardens they could fall back on when their jobs evaporated. Now the situation is totally reversed, the majority of americans live in the cities and the suburbs, most have little to no way of feeding themselves without employment. Furhter with the global market, the crash that would follow just allowing the entire financial industry to fail would be global.
We don't want or need goverment ownership of the financial industry, but we most certainly cannot allow the general failure of the economy that would follow if the government fails to step in. And don't doubt for a second that it would happen. Our world economy lives on credit. The factories don't pay cash for their parts, the companies who make the parts don't pay cash for the metals, plastics and other components, so on and so forth, if the financial industry fails, so does the rest of industry, across the board.
What we do need to be very vocal to our representatives in washington about is making sure that past protections that were stripped out in the 90's (both party's were complicit) are put back in place and cemented there. And demand that no CEO of any company that gets bailed out recieves even a microgram of Golden Parachute. Every failed mortgage across the country needs to be looked at carefully. If the owners have or had been making a legitimate effort to avoid forclosure (i.e. tried to refinance, and paid what they could) then they should be helped, forgive enough of the interest on the loan to make it payable, not easily payable, but payable. If as with my own brother-in-law, they stopped even making the payments (we advised them to keep making as much of a payment as they could until he got another job.) when they got into trouble, then they need to be out looking for a place to rent. And good luck financing another house any time soon.
In addition what we need to ask is would it hurt to push the interest rates up a bit? It's really annoying that money sitting in a savings account is actually losing ground to inflation. i.e. you would get more bang for your buck by just spending it now then by waiting and spending the accumulated amount at a later time. Make it worthwhile to save and you might just see a few americans actually try to save a buck or two.
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quote: I have a question about debt. If the prospect of paying off a mortgage on a house is unlikely because the debt is so high and the payments only really meet the interest payment each month, would it be better to sell the house and rent?
Here in the states, the idea of home ownership is almost synonymous with "the American Dream" and many people leverage themselves to the hilt to get into the home of their dreams, or more often than not, just a home. Having an interest only loan that isn't geting you closer to owning the home is little better than just paying rent, and actually could be a lot worse if you can't meet your obligations. In these cases, I absolutely think the prudent thing is to sell the home and move on.
Houses are a form of security for some people. For others, they are just a house. Mrs. Madd and I are somewhat split on this opinion. For me, if we were to sell the house and go live somewhere else, it would be an inconvenience, but I could do it. Mrs. Madd, on the other hand, would be devastated if we sold our house for any reason other than to live with our grown children in another place at another stage of life. She is *very* attached to the house, and what I really think she is attached to is the metaphor for security that it provides. This is why I have a hard time telling people "hey, it's just a house", because for many people, it's *way* more than that.
Were everyone to try to live to the Ramsey maxim when it comes to a mortgage (15 Year Fixed with payments equalling no more than 25% of your take home pay each month), I'd dare say that the vast majority of us would have a really hard time buying anything at all in California (where I happen to live). However, that would not at all be out of line for San Antonio, Texas; Topeka, Kansas; Butte, Montana or Nashville, Tennesee and their surrounding areas. Thus, for many, the truly prudent course is to go and move to an area where one can truly afford to live, earn a wage that can accommodate their lifestyles, and not bite off more than they can chew to live in those places. When that happens, a house can be a blessing. When people leverage everything for the dreeam house in the dream neighborhood with the dream cars and the dream facade... that house can quickly become a curse to that family.
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posted
I hear sometimes that people feel shame for being in very meager circumstances. I felt the opposite of shame back when it was my time. And now almost 10 years later, I look back on those days as a period of both fun and maturing. We earned our stripes back then.
My friend's college age daughter recently had to come clean about her $10K of CC debt, .7 GPA, DUI, and STD. Now those are a bunch of acronyms worthy of shame.
I remember the days of scrimping and saving, living in tiny quarters with my wife. Yes, we did indeed dive in couch cushions looking for enough change to go share a McDonald's ice cream cone. That was considered a date.
quote: Every failed mortgage across the country needs to be looked at carefully. If the owners have or had been making a legitimate effort to avoid forclosure (i.e. tried to refinance, and paid what they could) then they should be helped, forgive enough of the interest on the loan to make it payable, not easily payable, but payable. If as with my own brother-in-law, they stopped even making the payments (we advised them to keep making as much of a payment as they could until he got another job.) when they got into trouble, then they need to be out looking for a place to rent. And good luck financing another house any time soon.
Is it fair for a family to lose their home when they fall on hard times and can't make payments? Is it fair for a creditor to lose his principal when a bankruptcy court lets a family keep their primary residence (which is not an uncommon outcome)?
I've learned from observing teenagers that "fairness" seems to reflect our emotional response to a situation rather than any rational, objective measure. Truth is, I don't know what is fair when a family is out of work and about to lose their house. Closest I can come is a requirement that all mortgagees pay a proportionate share of the costs incurred by fellow mortgagees who fall on hard times.
Well, that was the whole idea behind Fannie May and Freddie Mac. We saw how well that worked. I am something of an extreme free market proponent, so I am happy to blame the government for subsidizing Fannie May and Freddie Mac without properly supervising them. Others of different political bent will answer differently.
quote: In addition what we need to ask is would it hurt to push the interest rates up a bit? It's really annoying that money sitting in a savings account is actually losing ground to inflation. i.e. you would get more bang for your buck by just spending it now then by waiting and spending the accumulated amount at a later time. Make it worthwhile to save and you might just see a few americans actually try to save a buck or two.
Turns out that, historically, interest rates on ordinary savings accounts have pretty much always come out as a wash after you adjust for inflation and taxes.
This isn't because of some sinister conspiracy to make taxe rates just right to gobble up all the earnings. It's because savings accounts are the lowest common denominator of savings, just one step better than buying gold coins and stuffing them in your matress. So it's the interest rate that adjusts, and it adjusts just right to ensure that savings accounts are marginally better than buying assets and sitting on them.
Should home interest rates be higher? In a way, that's kind of a "duh" question. The interest rates of the past few years were obviously not enough to cover the risks associated with the loans, or we wouldn't be in our present fix. The interesting question is why the interest rates remained too low. And the obvious answer is because Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac were willing to insure mortgages taht were too risky.
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posted
LM, I'm the same way. I'm proud of feeding my family on a tiny food budget, modestly and attractively clothing my girls with thrift store clothing and hand-me-downs and yard sale finds, and making do with what we've got.
And my daughters like it, too, 'cause that means once a year we get to go on a trip or to Disneyland or something. Posts: 8148 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
Don't be an enabler. Cut off the banks. Cut off those who lived foolishly with their money. It is not all doom and gloom. We will get through it and maybe we can have a generation that again knows the importance of thrift and industry.
[ September 23, 2008, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Jason ]
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quote: I use the eating an elephant analogy (one bite at at a time).
Or one can at a time.
I don't know if anyone here reads the Reader's Digest, but there is a section on saving money. There is one particular article about a family that decided to live very frugally for 30 days. It made me think about what we need vs. what we want.
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quote: Here in the states, the idea of home ownership is almost synonymous with "the American Dream"
Robin Hood, what is the general attitude towards home ownership in England? Which is more common in your neck of the woods, renting or owning?
Posts: 1901 | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:It means that 5 of us live in a 2 bedroom, 945 square foot apartment, don't have our own washer and dryer, and a few other minor inconveniences.
KQ, can you get away with that? In our neck of the woods there's a law that says you can't rent to someone with more than "two heartbeats per bedroom" - IOW, a family of five would have to have three bedrooms. I guess if you own the home you can cram as many kids as you want into one bedroom, but renters can't.
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posted
PollyAnna, can you explain to me how living on the street -- because rent control laws have guaranteed you can't get housing -- is better than being crowded into a small apartment? Because I just don't see it.
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posted
We have a home, it is a modest home because we are living within our means and have money left over every month..would selling our home help us, of course we could pay down our school loans much faster that way, but that is not an option and will not be an option, we can afford to pay both, that is what living within your means is. If you can afford to pay all of your bills and have money left over. If you know how to manage your money and resources to help you through lean times.
Many people I talk to, paying down their school loans is making the minimum payment on it for the next 30 years, I don't understand why this is not a priority to them, we put almost half our income each month on our school loans, in a year, they will be gone, we will take a vacation to celebrate and then we will put the money on our mortgage. Are we prepared in case of dire circumstances--ie loss of income? No, we aren't, but that doesn't mean we aren't following the prophet. I honestly don't think you can do everything all of the time--you shouldn't go into debt for food storage, you should be self-reliant, you should pay off your mortgage. The prophet is giving very good general advice, but that doesn't mean if my school loan interest rate is higher I have to pay off my mortgage first or sell my house. We aren't living paycheck to paycheck and we are in no danger of losing our home, should the worst happen, we will deal with it then--there are options, they just aren't pretty options. Right now the best (good, better, best remember) choice for us is pay off the school loans as fast as we can. This crisis/scare so far has in no way affected us, even the rising gas prices have barely changed our way of life--but when you are living within your means that's kind of the way life goes.
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quote:....that is what living within your means is. If you can afford to pay all of your bills and have money left over. If you know how to manage your money and resources to help you through lean times.
Actually, I don't think that is exactly true, necessarily.
It mostly is true.
But, in a Zion society, if you are unable to help others (especially those of your own family) in a pinch, IMHO, you are not properly stewarding the blessings God has given you.
So I would add the following:
If you can afford to pay all of your bills and have money left over, and you are able to help others, if necessary, then you are properly living within your means.
Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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We have a law about 2 people per bedroom. However, it does not apply to children under 1 (one of ours is), and they do not have to take into consideration children born or adopted after the lease is signed. In other words, if we were renting a place now, we could still get in. If we were renting next year (after Maggie turned 1), we could not get a 2 bedroom place, we'd have to get a 3 bedroom. But, if we stay in this place for another year, they don't have to take her into consideration if they don't want to-- in other words, if they don't like us for some other reason it gives them grounds to kick us out, but if we don't cause problems they don't HAVE to take it into consideration when deciding whether to renew our lease. Posts: 8148 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Oh, and our laws are not at all about protecting renters from unscrupulous landlords. They are about protecting property values from immigrant families living several family units to a house, if you read the history of their enactment. :\ Posts: 8148 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Oh, yes, in some areas that is the case. However, locally (i.e., in our particular township part of L.A.) the law was NOT passed when that would have been a problem, and WAS passed after much debate on immigration. So locally, that's what the laws are about. Not being in an area that's accessible to farm workers, we don't have migrant workers but we do have immigrants legal and illegal who often come here poor and used to a different standard of living.
Posts: 8148 | Registered: Aug 2004
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I'm still failing to see why offering a couple of immigrant families a crowded place to live, when the families could not afford any place to live individually, is exploitation.
Posts: 831 | Registered: Aug 2008
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