quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If what you are doing is not working, stop doing it." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's, more or less, what our first counselor told us. And I did that. Actually, I've done it twice now at this point. As I've mentioned in previous post, I tried the patient and longsuffering approach in the beginning. Probably for about the first two or so years that we knew each other; 1 year dating, 1 year married. That didn't work. So I stopped doing what wasn't working and went for the overbearing and domineering approach for the past 5 or so years. That hasn't worked either, and my only conclusion is that she just isn't a workable person.
This isn't actually how that concept works. It is a lot different than this. It isn't swinging from one end of the pendulem to the other. It is a case by case method of changing your reactions.
You don't do it twice. You do it everytime that you see your approach is not working. It is not being domineering or a pushover, it is reacting differently than you have.
posted
I still don't understand what you mean when you say being nice and longsuffering "didn't work". Didn't work to accomplish what? What went awry when you tried that approach?
Posts: 4410 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I've never been an Oprah fan, and while I've vaguely heard of Dr. Phil and his "How's that working for you?" I was not aware it was considered a snarky comeback, no. Which is why I interpreted what palmetto_gal wrote based on the words I read and not the cultural perceptions with those words.
Posts: 4447 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quid: I don't watch those shows either, and before SW's objection, I didn't know its origin. I've only heard the expression used sarcastically. Seeing zzy's response, I figure that's how he saw it too...
I think the clarification of your perspective really helps clear the air regarding the tone of the responses and help that folks are giving.
posted
Yes, I'm a newbie chiming in if that's ok...
I'm a plain speaking woman, so forgive me if I'm too blunt here.
Z,after reading the first couple and the last few pages of this thread, I'm not sure why you don't believe your wife when she says the marriage is over and she wants out. She's demonstrated to you in every way conceivable that she is not happy with you as a husband and wants to move in a different direction with her life. She stayed with you for seven years, she probably thought she gave it her best shot but doesn't want to spend the rest of her life in what sounds like a deeply unhappy marriage. And most importantly, she doesn't want her children growing up in the middle of that unhappiness.
You've tried to talk her into staying with you but she's given you no indication that she wants to turn back. Maybe it's time you just respected her right to make her own decisions without using guilt trips, calls to repentance, and other tactics which sound, to be honest, quite manipulative, to get her to change her mind.
You say she's selfish for wanting to end the marriage, but if she is the loving mother you say she is, she would have considered this move long and hard before subjecting her children to any unnecessary emotional pain.
She has her agency. She wants to move on. Whether you like it or not, she is a grown woman capable of making her own decisions and of receiving spiritual direction that is right for her and the children.
Quite honestly, I don't see much love and tenderness reflected in your comments about your wife. You said there have been problems from the start, and those intensified with the arrival of children and your jealousy of her relationship with them. There's a lot of comments about what she 'should' do, about duty and obedience and submission to your patriarchal authority, about her not being a 'workable' (ie, easily manipulated?) person.
At the start of this thread you were talking about her not being the 'girl' she used to be - well thank your lucky stars for that - would you really want to be married to a barely post-adolescent for the rest of your days? And if you did, what would that say about your own maturity level?
'Girls' grow up, if they are lucky, to be independent,intelligent, spiritually and emotionally strong, amazing WOMEN. It sounds to me like your 'girl' grew into a woman who, after a year or so decided she didn't like being controlled, and focused her love and affection on her children instead of giving it to someone she likely didn't feel loved or appreciated by. If you chided her about how she had 'changed' after having babies, I can well imagine how that would have affected her sense of self-esteem. If you pouted about her giving more attention to the babies, then she would have felt even more protective of them because in her eyes, you weren't putting their needs ahead of your own by letting their mother focus on them.
I might be way off the mark, but my observations are only based on what you've said so far about your wife and the problems that have led her to want this divorce. I know it's painful to acknowledge when someone doesn't want us anymore, when in spite of our promises to change and our heartfelt pleas they still don't want to try and make it work. But it does sound to me like your wife has come to that point of no return, and that it's been brewing in her mind and heart for years.
Whatever happens I wish you, your wife and your children the happiness you all deserve.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Oct 2009
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quote:It was in the middle pages you (Thunderbird) say you didn't read.
Fair enough, so I just waded through the interim pages to find what else Z has said about his wife. The majority of his comments are about her faults - she's emotionally distant, neglects their marriage, she's having an emotional affair with the kids (?!!), she wants to shove their marriage 'down the crapper', she'd rather be 'transported to another planet' than discuss how to save their marriage, she gives him 'a figurative slap in the face, door slammed, scowl, venom, threats, and pretty much every negative vibe in the book shoved down my throat', she is 'so saturated with venom that plants wilt and small furry critters die if they're within a 100' radius', she wants 'my head on a rusting platter and me to be impaled on a stake in the front yard for the crows to consume my flesh and the whole world to see how well she destroyed that man!'.
If he'd known what she would be like in the future, he 'would have just went away and never even called her back.' She is only doing these things to get an 'ego boost'. She hopes he enjoys 'choking' on what he's dished out to her. Her actions are 'selfish and of the world', and so are the friends she associates with. It 'kills him alive' that she is so openly affectionate with their kids, but not with him, and it takes 'every fiber of his being' to convince himself that she's just being a good mother and not some kind of obsessive nutjob.
Meanwhile, other women are apparently swooning at his feet when he talks about all the wonderful things he will do to save the marriage. (I'm sure she'd be thrilled (not) to know her many failings are being discussed openly with people they mutually know.) From his wife's perspective, he needed to be doing those wonderful things he speaks of during the marriage and after the children came along when she needed his support the most. Clearly that didn't happen and the damage was so great that she has no interest in even trying to save the marriage anymore.
If the negativity towards his wife here is anything like what she has received from him over the past four or five years of their marriage, then no wonder she is at the point she is. Couple that with being put down, yelled at and dealing with a grown man feeling jealous of his children, and the gap between them grows even wider.
On the upside, Z says she is funny, and he has some good memories of how it was when they were first married (great, happy, silly, fun, playful, tender, affectionate, sincere, caring, helpful, laughing, friends all around times). Out of all the comments made about his wife here, the only positives he can think of go back to before the kids were born, when he was the the center of her attention and affection.
It would seem that the only way this marriage might survive is if Z's wife still has a shred of desire to get some counselling and work through fixing their marriage...but from what he's said about her, he doesn't like her much as she is today (he likes the idealised 'her' from when they were first married) and she can't stand him at all.
The breakdown of the marriage is sad for the entire family, but quite honestly, if I were Z I'd respectfully let her do what she needs to. She might change her mind at the 11th hour, but ultimately he's told her he wants to make the marriage work and if she rejects that offering, he needs to accept her wishes and make arrangements so that the both of them can be the very best parents they can for those two little children whose lives are about to change forever.
Posts: 26 | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
Dang, I'm way behind on my homework - haha! - so many posts to follow up to. Where to start. Looks like we're getting back to counseling session thread again. hehe All good. Overall, as this all continues on, it does seem that the ratio of what I don't/didn't enjoy in my wife is greater than what I do. Maybe there never really was all that much about her that made me choose her. Other people I have talked with have mentioned similar. Maybe the attributes about her that I don't like are just too great, and not going away, to make this whole thing last. I hate that feeling, because many of the really nasty things she does now to me were never there before. The mean spirited pride, the selfishness, the "lust" to take from me everything she can. In 7 years, I have never seen her behave the way she does now. Not even close. Not even to other people. There was no hint nor indication that this way of being was inside her. I sit here and wonder do I even want to be with a person that has this inside them and it could come out again at anytime for who knows what reason. Obviously, its pushing me away, and I can deal with that. What terrifies me the most is that my kids will be subjected to it over the years. Independent. The word itself is rare in the scriptures. Not even a dozen times, including the index and bible dictionary. When it is used, it isn't used to describe personal indenendence. In fact, the majority of the scriptures expound on the concept of dependence - dependence on the Savior and the Lord. Even dependence on the church, to a degree. Specifically speaking about marriage, the scriptures state to cleave unto one's spouse. Even the church leaders have spoken that it is destructive to a marriage to make the claim one marriage partner doesn't need the other. I don't see how personal independence enhances a marriage relationship. My take is interdependence as opposed to independence. Mutually depending on each other and then sharing that with the rest of the family. That is the belief I have had about marriage since I was a teen-ager. Did I do that during my marriage? Not as much as was needed. I did from time to time over the years, but obviously not enough. Now, many of the things that many have said in this thread have been focused a lot on my terrible past. The thing is, there is nothing that you, I, me, she, he, they, them, not even Jesus Christ, nor the Lord God Himself can change the past. Thus, what's the be gained by rehashing the past? If I (we, her, them) want my terrible past to truly go away and be gone, then it has to be put behind me (us, her). Everytime that we bring up the bad/worst parts of my past, we bring the bad Zzyzx back to life all over again. And we thought the Resurrection was still yet to come! HAHA! So, yes, I would agree with many of the things that people post here - if we were living in the past. As far as I can tell, I am living in the present, working on a better future. Yes, even I keep digging into the past too often. The bad habits sink in fast, deep, and are hard to shake. I'm working on it. Overall, who I am now is vastly different compared to who I was. Which is what I have expressed, and shown, to my wife. The big things, she doesn't want them and rejects my offering them. The little things, I do as consistently as I can. This is the present that I'm doing these things in. Leave the past in the past. I feel frustrated and helpless many times in that I can't think of many new things to do to be the better person that I should, and need, and want, to be. Mostly all I have left at this point is keep doing the little things over and over. The more I've done them, the more natural and peaceful it feels. You know when people get up and talk in Testimony meeting and they talk about the peaceful feelings the Spirit brings? I never knew what those people were talking about - never - until I started doing just the little things for my wife to add a little more happiness and help her out where I could. As has been stated, yes, I do need to let her do what she is going to do. Everything that I have read, studied, been taught, heard in church, conference, and mutual activities states that how my wife is treating our marriage and family is not in harmony with the Gospel. I know what's right, the Lord knows what's right, she most likely knows what's right, too. The thing that worries me the most is that when she comes to the realization of that, I will be so far gone from her, emotionally, mentally, lovingly, that it will be near impossible for us to come back together ever again. At that point, she will be the exact girl I've always wanted, but I don't believe that I will be able to turn back to her. I will want to be with her forever, but I won't be able to bring myself to be able to try with her ever again. Like I said, our first mediation is Nov. 4th. Just 30 days away. I worry that there isn't enough time left... Let her go. Believe you me, I want to. Having to deal with someone that is so mean-spirited as my wife has become does not make the days go by more merrily. If it was anybody else, I would have never talked to them ever again. But this is my wife, this is our marriage, this is our family. She used to be my best friend. I miss her. I miss the friend I once had. That friend was there once, she can be there again. Persevere to the end, right? Why does that concept apply so adamantly to most everything in the Gospel, but for a marriage its thrown in the towel after a few failed attempts? The family is the major central focus of everything in the Gospel, but the family can't be good without a good marriage first. In my situation, there is a family now in place. That, to me, makes it even more critical and important to get the marriage good. The responsibilities at this point are far more greater than they are if we were still newlyweds. I still feel there is one possibility of hope - there is still some time left.
quote: Thus, what's the be gained by rehashing the past? If I (we, her, them) want my terrible past to truly go away and be gone, then it has to be put behind me (us, her).
I think that it's important to remember that just because you are ready to forgive yourself and move on, doesn't mean that she is ready to do that, too. Forgive you and move on, I mean.
Also, I see a certain self serving view to the way you say that all the poor choices you've made in the past just need to be left there...unfortunately, one of the consequences of poor choices is that WE don't choose when OTHERS come to the place where they can forgive us. It's their hurt to mend, their burden to lay at the Lord's feet. I have found that when I am the one who needs to be forgiven, I will stunt the process if I insist that because I've said I'm sorry and I am trying to change, it's time to move on. That is not the offender's decision. It is the one who has been offended that controls that part of the process.
This thread has become very painful for me to read. Because of my own parent's failed marriage, and because 2 of my dear friends now seem to be headed in the same direction.
One thing I am learning is how differently 2 people in a damaged marriage can see things. I have been told something by one spouse, and then told a completely different story by the other.
Neither one of them is lying. They simply do not have the ability to put themselves in one another's shoes...they have no empathy or charity for one another. They only see the hurt and pain that they have endured, and choose to ignore the hurt and pain they have inflicted.
It is one of the most heartbreaking things to watch.
Posts: 4371 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Sorry, trooperswife. And sorry to all the others that feel a level of the misery involved with all this. I would really hope that no one has to feel this as one of the participants. The more people I come in contact with, the more stories I hear of others that are participants in their own marriages. It does pain me everytime I hear that there is another couple dealing with the same.
I think I can see where you're coming from in that I can't have any say in how my wife heals: when, where, how. I wish I could wave a magic wand and heal her. But that's just silly fantasy. I wish that we could hug each other and just sit on the couch and chit-chat, like we used to do, until all the hurt and pain is gone and the healing is done. As I've said, I can't think of what else new to do. Just the same simple things over and over again. As others have made mention in this thread, whether that works for our relationship or not, it will work for myself.
Posts: 77 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
"Persevere to the end, right? Why does that concept apply so adamantly to most everything in the Gospel, but for a marriage its thrown in the towel after a few failed attempts?"
If she doesn't want to stay in the marriage, this IS the end. Rightly or wrongly, it is the end. It takes two people to make marriage work, but only one to make it fail. If one person does NOT want to stay married, all the patience, manipulation, or work on the side of the other person WILL NOT WORK.
Maybe SHE is the one who feels that she did all the work and got nothing in return, and now it is too little, too late. This is her call.
"There was no hint nor indication that this way of being was inside her. I sit here and wonder do I even want to be with a person that has this inside them and it could come out again at anytime for who knows what reason."
I can't help but wonder if she is thinking exactly the same thing about you. It would certainly explain why she may not want to continue the marriage.
Posts: 1677 | Registered: Feb 2005
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It takes two people to make marriage work, but only one to make it fail. If one person does NOT want to stay married, all the patience, manipulation, or work on the side of the other person WILL NOT WORK.
In my prayers last night, I specifically asked the Lord if I should continue to work on the marriage. This morning was Raro's post. I can accept the combination of those two, sorrowfully, as an answer to a prayer.
Now, there is still one more thing that weighs heavily on my mind and soul:
quote: In 1965, President David O. McKay made the following statement to a group of Church employees:
"Let me assure you, Brethren, that some day you will have a personal priesthood interview with the Savior himself. If you are interested, I will tell you the order in which he will ask you to account for your earthly responsibilities."
"First, he will request an accountability report about your relationship with your wife. Have you actively been engaged in making her happy and ensuring that her needs have been met as an individual?"
How am I supposed to juggle that for the next few weeks?
Keep in mind, we're not living in the past. I've done all that I believe I am capable of doing, given the present circumstances, to take care of the past. Everything else I'm gonna have to leave up to the Atonement. If you're gonna beat the dead horse known as my past, I'll ignore you flat out. I'm living in the present and moving towards the future. Let's try and keep that positive atmosphere going. Thanks.
posted
I don't like to give advice where I don't know the situation properly, but it does look like time to draw a line under the matter. You need to get on with your wife so that your children can still have both parents, so perhaps what you should be doing now is talking to your wife about how you two will relate in the future to limit the impact on your children. I would suggest that, having initiated the conversation, you do a lot of listening.
Posts: 1517 | Registered: Oct 2008
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zz: what did you think about General Conference? I was struck by how many addresses talked about love and also about following the Spirit. I thought of your situation a couple times and hoped for you. My prayers continue in your situation. I hope you are finding answers, whatever they may be.
posted
I was in for my Temple Recommend interview the other night with the bishop and, after talking with him for a bit about what's going on, he told me that he's been working with me about 90% of the time towards helping out our marriage and family and my wife only 10%. That seemed to fly in the face of "help one another as equal partners", as found in the Family Proclamation. He replied that "You seem like you're more willing to change than she is". That kinda startled me, since the majority of the times I've discussed things with him, he has been sure to point out and focus on my faults, flaws, failures and shortcomings as a husband. Anyways, I thought it quite interesting and unexpected, so I decided I would post.
Posts: 77 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I spoke with the Stake Pres. a week or so ago specifically about being "released" from the marriage convenant, so to speak. Just trying to keep going when things are so emotionally draining weighs down so heavily on me. He said that sometimes people just check-out of marriages. Whether that's right or wrong, they just do. At that point, there isn't much one can do. Marriage is a partnership; not a one person carries the whole load. He said he feels so helpless because he would like to just be able to fix all these things, but sometimes one or the other partner just isn't going to choose to work on it. So, anyways, I consult with the Lord on all this from time to time, but I just haven't gotten an "It is enough" response from Him, so I keep true to the path.
The Stake President also mentioned that L. Tom Perry is coming to speak at our next stake conference. He said that this is the first time he has ever known an Apostle coming to speak at our stake. The reason being, in part, due to the high divorce rate our stake has been experiencing. The Stake President feels so downtrodden because he has multiple Temple sealing canellations per month that he has to process; not just one or two, but several at a time.
Pondering about it all in a more general sense, I had a small epiphony the other day. Basing off of these scriptures:
Joseph Smith - Matthew
42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the flood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage; 43 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the last days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left; 45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;
Going on the concept of half, current divorce rates are 50+%..... and growing. What have we let this world become? What can I do to make it better? I'm at a loss.. Posts: 77 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote: I spoke with the Stake Pres. a week or so ago specifically about being "released" from the marriage convenant, so to speak.
I don't understand what you mean. Are you talking about letting her go in your mind or are you referring to a sealing cancellation?
Posts: 2641 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Of being released from my obligation to do this:
quote:In 1965, President David O. McKay made the following statement to a group of Church employees:
"Let me assure you, Brethren, that some day you will have a personal priesthood interview with the Savior himself. If you are interested, I will tell you the order in which he will ask you to account for your earthly responsibilities."
"First, he will request an accountability report about your relationship with your wife. Have you actively been engaged in making her happy and ensuring that her needs have been met as an individual?"
quote:You can't save your marriage. Your wife can't save your marriage. Even working together, you can't save it. The Lord will save it or Satan will destroy it. Whose side will you be fighting on?
Satan won today
Posts: 77 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I haven't offered any advice on this thread, but I've been peeking in on it, since I went through a divorce myself. I'm not going to try to do a post-morten examination. All I can do is recognize that my ex-wife and I saw things differently, and according to our own biases: I'll leave it to God to weigh out shares of blame, if there are any. I've also recognized that I am not responsible for her choices. I am only responsible for my own, and mine weren't always the best. Someone commented to me that my ex-wife had said I wasn't the man she thought I was. After some years of reflecting, and an almost-marriage that would have been a dreadful mistake, I've come to the conclusion that I wasn't the man, or the kind of husband *I* thought I was, either. For now, all I can do is grieve along with you.
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Other people I have talked with have mentioned similar. Maybe the attributes about her that I don't like are just too great, and not going away, to make this whole thing last. I hate that feeling, because many of the really nasty things she does now to me were never there before. The mean spirited pride, the selfishness, the "lust" to take from me everything she can. In 7 years, I have never seen her behave the way she does now. Not even close. Not even to other people. There was no hint nor indication that this way of being was inside her. I sit here and wonder do I even want to be with a person that has this inside them and it could come out again at anytime for who knows what reason. Obviously, its pushing me away, and I can deal with that. What terrifies me the most is that my kids will be subjected to it over the years.![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
So, yes, I would agree with many of the things that people post here - if we were living in the past. As far as I can tell, I am living in the present, working on a better future. Yes, even I keep digging into the past too often. The bad habits sink in fast, deep, and are hard to shake. I'm working on it. Overall, who I am now is vastly different compared to who I was.
