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» Nauvoo Forum » Nauvoo Classic Forum » General Discussions » Brandon Davies and the Honor Code Violation

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Author Topic: Brandon Davies and the Honor Code Violation
jaimilyn
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Mostly because I can't believe we don't have a thread on this already and I'm curious to hear people's takes on the story...

http://beyondthearc.nbcsports.com/2011/03/02/byu-player-reportedly-dismissed-for-having-sex/
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/51348870-88/davies-byu-code-honor.html.csp
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6175090

Thoughts?

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trooperswife
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Sounds like he is regretful, and it seems the school is handling it fairly but also compassionately.

Besides the fact that the rest of the country can't believe that a school HAS an honor code, let alone enforces it, it seems kind of boring to me.

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jaimilyn
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I think the comments sections of the articles are the most fascinating part to me. You've got the "good for BYU" group, the "c'mon, everyone else does it" group, the "couldn't he have at least waited till the season was over to confess" group, the members trying to explain the the rest that LDS people really are normal, and then the crazy people that are convinced that Mormons are Aliens and the Downfall Of Society. [Smile]
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Redd
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Honor codes are nothing new, the military academies have them too. I think what is being looked at is the fact that he had sex...something that they don't consider to be out of the ordinary. What is really out of the ordinary for these sports writters is that this is not a criminal act. He wasn't at a strip club. He did not rape a girl. He did not have a wild party going on. He was not 'caught'. He did not try to excuse himself. Brandon Davies did something that is normal for the world but not for BYU, and he is contrite about his decision. I really think this confuses the media.
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Brian J: Hill
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What's more interesting to me than the story itself has been the media coverage, which has been, for the most part, overwhelmingly positive and supportive of BYU's decision to enforce its Honor Code. Sure, there have always been detractors of the Code (including yours truly, but only when it comes to facial hair,) but the consensus seems to be that BYU should be lauded for not creating a double standard, even at the cost of a potential "dream season." It's refreshing to hear 24-hour sports junkies actually admitting that sometimes, there are things that are much more important than basketball.

Here's a few links that I've enjoyed:

Debate on whether BYU's policies are "unrealistic" in today's sports world (Answer: No)

Column - written by a Mormon - that's currently the top story on Yahoo! News

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Sweet William
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Well, allow me to annoyingly repeat myself:

The poor little sporto boy will be back next season, fully-"repentant," scholarship intact, and fabulous sports career in the future.

Boo hoo.

Oh, and there will be no end of all the articles about how he "worked so hard to get back into BYU."

Gag me.

A chemistry major, IF they even let him back in school, would never get another scholarship. Heck, they might not even let him transfer his credits.

Yes, yes, I know they are two different people, but.

All this "Jimmer" talk makes me ask "What? Is this "Jimmer" person some guy who cured cancer or actually did something IMPORTANT for humanity?

I think all church schools should be like BYU-Idaho. And BYU-Idaho should be called Ricks again.

I'm so glad that in a month (or whenever), when BYU is out of the tournament, that we can go ahead and talk about something interesting.

And puhleeze. Was it channel 2 that "went to his hometown" to find out all about him? What a waste of TV news time.

[ March 04, 2011, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Sweet William ]

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jana at jade house
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This is world wide news. Along with the horrors of Tunisia, Libya, and Egypt. Stunning the panorama of human events that make strange bedfellows these days, don't you think?

I feel pained for his girlfriend and the respective families. How would you like it if you children's errors in judgment were reported world wide? I would not be able to leave the house for shame.

A report that he was off the team is one thing, but I, nor everysinglepersonintheworld, did not need to know why. or who with.

In this world where some people scream about privacy when their publicly available telephone number shows up on facebook, why is something as intimate and personal as OK to hangout the window like the bridal sheets of old?

wacky world.

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Redd
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quote:
This is world wide news.
"Mormon Boy Has Sex, News At Eleven"

[Roll Eyes]

Sweet William may be talking tongue in cheek here, but I think he has a point. If an athlete is allowed a scholarship back but others aren't then something needs to change. I am not a sports freak, I think the money used on sports programs could be better used else where.

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jana at jade house
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Um no Redd, the sports angle is the headline and then all the details...ugh. I am one of those people who think a contract for more money than I will see in my lifetime for a year of catching a ball and running is obscene. Especially when my teaching the future of science cutting edge husband has to fight for funding to do just that.

But I like that he is manning up. I hate that everyone else has to live thru the what and who.

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Marie2
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I personally knew students at BYU who committed the same error, were allowed to repent, come back and keep their scholarship. And they weren't athletes. Their story just didn't make the news like his would if he repents is allowed back and keeps his scholarship. So I wouldn't think of that as a double standard- we just only hear about the athlete cases. The Chem student wouldn't make the news.
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rayb
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The public aspect of this makes true repentance more difficult, but then that goes both ways. People learn what a person does, and then they can't forgive them--they always paint that person by the sin they knew, and always see them through that dirty window. In a way it forms a trap for the one involved too. Healing can and will occur if he's sincere, and it's personal, and it's nothing none of us gawkers can do anything about... there is no amount of "punishment" or "public flogging" or "public contrition" he can do to make everyone happy... and it will always look insincere, no matter how sincere he is... and we should just butt out.

--Ray

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jlm
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My own personal musings relative to the subject are relative to the effectiveness of the strict code. I understand the core rules (i.e. law of chasitiy, word of wisdom, honesty, etc.) because they are established measures for temple worthyness. What I don't get are the more pharisitical rules such as no boys in the girl's apartment bedroom, ever, and the strict dress standards. Do these restrictions actually improve adherance to the higher law or just promote a culture of sneaks and snitches? Have the brethen actually looked at the numbers between church schools and student wards at regular schools regarding church discipline to see if the code is actually effective? Questions, questions...
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HalfABrain
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quote:
What I don't get are the more pharisitical rules such as no boys in the girl's apartment bedroom, ever, and the strict dress standards. Do these restrictions actually improve adherance to the higher law or just promote a culture of sneaks and snitches? Have the brethen actually looked at the numbers between church schools and student wards at regular schools regarding church discipline to see if the code is actually effective?
I'm pretty sure they have. And I think they go deeper. They have an awful lot of experience in this area, not only with the numbers but also with the particulars and slippery slope indicators. When I was a student at BYU mumblemumble years ago, we had a list of the "Seventeen Rules of Celestial Dating". There were such things as never go into the date's bedroom, never be alone in the apartment together, never lie down on a date... I don't remember them all. They seemed a little bit over the top, so they were great targets for mockery. Sometimes we'd try to see how many of the rules we could break in one night. But that was all in fun and we understood why they were there and that it really was a good idea to take them seriously. Each one was on the list because more than one couple had gotten into moral trouble that, had they just kept that one rule, wouldn't have been a problem.

The sneaks that are going to ignore the little rules are always going to have their problems, but I don't think they're who the little rules are for. It's the naive young students that really try to do the right thing, but sometimes get themselves into a situation they weren't prepared for. If you really take the rules seriously, it's pretty easy to withstand the temptation to go into a coed's bedroom. If they didn't have that rule and the kids didn't know it was dangerous, it wouldn't be quite as easy to not let things get out of hand in the heat of the moment.

They're a lot more blunt these days when they explain the honor code to the students. And they're a lot less lenient of violations than back when I was a student. Part of it is that church school can be an amazing experience. Not for everyone, but for a lot of students. They have a lot more people applying than they used to, and they have to turn a lot more people away. If you're not going to follow the rules, for whatever reason, maybe it's best you find another school. Free up your slot, because there are several people just waiting to take your place that WILL follow the rules.

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johnhenry
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My father and 2nd older brother both graduated from Virginia Military Institute and my 1st older brother graduated from the US Military Academey (aka West Point). VMI's honor code can be found here:

quote:
I hereby engage to serve as a cadet in the Virginia Military Institute for the term for which I have entered. I promise on my honor while I continue a member thereof to obey all legal orders of the Constituted Authorities of the Institute and to discharge all my duties as a cadet with regularity and fidelity. I will never lie, cheat, steal, nor tolerate those who do, and I solemnly pledge to keep this covenant with all members of the Corps, so help me God.
What happens if it's been determined that one's violated the honor code?
quote:
If the accused is found guilty by the Honor Court, there is only one penalty – dismissal from the Institute.
West Point's honor code can be found here:

quote:
A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.
Those honor codes were exactly like that when my father went to VMI, they were exactly like that when my brothers went to VMI and West Point, and they're exactly like that today. And even the athletes going to those schools are required to honor the code and to accept the consequences if they violate it.

No, BYU is no Lone Ranger in having an exacting honor code nor are they alone in enforcing it to the extent they do.

As to what the violation was, I don't know and I don't care. It's actually none of my business. Whatever it was is a matter between Davies and the Honor Code Office. As it's a personal matter, I'd be shocked if the school actually stated publicly what the violation was. The necessity of enforcing the honor code, though, is my business. The Church partially subsidizes the tuition of all students from the tithes and offerings of the members of the Church. Those lucky enough to attend BYU, ranked #71 in the nation, are going there on the Church's dime. The agreement to accept that dime, so to speak, is to follow the honor code. If someone breaks that agreement, then they should be separated from the school until they prove that they can abide by that agreement.

BYU is doing a great job and this is more proof that it is. Standards mean something there, just like we're taught in church!

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NFH
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BYU's honor code states:


Be honest 
Live a chaste and virtuous life 
Obey the law and all campus policies 
Use clean language 
Respect others 
Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, and substance abuse 
Participate regularly in church services 
Observe the Dress and Grooming Standards 
Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code
*****

While I agree with all of these things and BYU's right to enforce them, I wonder if or why premarital intercourse is the only thingthat would get someone knocked off a sports team. Most students probably break most of these all the time, unwittingly or intentionally, let alone athletes. And "leading a chaste and virtuous life" involves much more than intercourse. P*** and m****** are undoubtedly participated in at the Y, as are other partnered actinides that are unchaste. I also highly doubt that Davies is the only athlete on the team or sophomore at the Y who has done this or anything like unto it.

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yungmom
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No, it's not the only thing. It's just the one in the news right now.

I do think there is probably a degree in which you do those things that will affect status on the team and being at the school. For example I think there is a big difference in going one mile an hour over the speed limit and going 50. Both are still against the law, but one has far greater consequences and possibilities of serious consequences than the other.

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CrowGirl
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First of all, had BYU chosen to wait until the season was over, it would have been howling fuel to the fire of mockery the university gets anyway. Selective enforcement, hypocritical, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Marie2, thank you for your input. I had friends that were dismissed for Honor Code violations, but were permitted to come back. None were athletes, and there were no scholarships in play. I didn't know about that part.

I also add that the Air Force Academy emphasizes not tolerating those who lie, steal or cheat pretty strongly, as well. I imagine the USCGA and USNA do, too. It is a good philosophy to live by, military or civilian.

The BYU Honor Code is there for a reason. Some of you have teased or mocked it here. I liken it unto the Word of Wisdom, which is set up for the weakest among us. Jlm and HalfaBrain could probably withstand temptation. Lucky them. Others are not so strong. Let's try and avoid even the appearance of impropriety, so that those who aren't as strong in the Celestial Dating areas aren't put into compromising positions. And really, it's better that way.

It's [Roll Eyes] attitudes that have been shown here, and at other times against BYU that kind of harshed my fizz about posting that CrowSon got accepted there, and is loving every minute of his experience. I personally am very proud of the university standing up for the Honor Code and not making exceptions, or even waiting until March Madness was over. The fact that Davies manned up to what he did shows that there is some remorse for breaking his word to the school. So who among us can say that his repentance won't be a genuine thing? When people have committed serious sins, and are finally reinstated in the Church, they are given what they had before the discipline. So what is the problem with an athlete, or a Chemistry major, getting the same treatment?

Personally, I am sorry that Davies and his girlfriend got caught up in something they knew they shouldn't have, if for no other reason than he signed an Honor Code stating he would behave a certain way. (I have no idea if he is LDS, nor do I care.) I'm sorry it's been posted all over the world. I'm sorry this became, among other things, a good example that sins can affect more than you sometimes. I'm sorry that, for the rest of his life, whenever Davies' name comes up, this will always be an addendum to his story. He and his girlfriend may repent, and the Lord may forget this sin, but Journalism Is Forever.

(Edited to correct grammatical and spelling errors.)

[ March 05, 2011, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: CrowGirl ]

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Jason
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I enjoyed my undergrad years at BYU. However, now that I am older I could never work there.

[ March 05, 2011, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Jason ]

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Zeta-Flux
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I enjoyed my undergrad years at BYU. However, now that I am older I work there. :-)
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Shane
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As a Ute fan, I often try to find ways to poke fun at BYU. But not where the honor code is concerned. Students go into BYU knowing about it and agreeing to it. That's the math student as well as the athlete. I for one am glad that they (BYU) stick to their guns when it comes to the commitments that are made by the students, whether they are athletes or not. I would be the quickest to see the hypocrisy were it to exist.

It's sad that somehow this young man's indiscretion got out in the news. If a history major were to have a similar incident, we'd never hear of it, because he or she wouldn't be in the lime light. I guess that's the price of being more of a public figure, your faults are seen by everyone.

And I guess that puts more pressure on those who are well known to set good examples, for they are seen by more people than us unknowns. However, our responsibility to be good examples, and to keep the commandments is just as great.

[ March 06, 2011, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Shane ]

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johnhenry
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And another school is dealing with a student athlete, as his father put it, disappointing someone.

The pertinent quote from the student's father is:
quote:
You let your team down. You let your coaches down. You let your student body down. You let the school down. You let everybody down.
The arresting officer noted the student lied during the traffic stop. That alone would've gotten him expelled from the federal and state military academies. I'm happy to note that some others also consider honor and integrity to be of worth in today's society!
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mirkwood
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quote:
I think all church schools should be like BYU-Idaho. And BYU-Idaho should be called Ricks again.


Explain please.


As another Ute fan, I agree with Shane. I am glad to see that BYU is enforcing their rules. I wish more schools would do the same. Most put sports priorities over the rules. That is part of the problem we are seeing in society.

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Sweet William
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think all church schools should be like BYU-Idaho. And BYU-Idaho should be called Ricks again.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explain please.

A church school where academics are the highest priority, and sports activities are practiced widely, on an intramural basis, instead of the "college is all abour inter-collegiate sports" freak show in which BYU must participate.
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PaddingtonBear
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I agree with SW that BYUI should be called Ricks again. If for no other reason than I can't get it right, and am constantly slipping up and calling it "Ricks".

I enjoyed my time as an undergrad at BYU and my time that I spent on campus this last weekend. I knew people that violated the Honor Code and their situations were dealt with in private. That's the part I feel the worst about for Mr. Davies, that because of his already-high profile, there was no "quiet" way to take care of things, except by lying, which the school and Mr. Davies would not do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason for the suspension was not released by the school, nor by the Honor Code office, nor will it be; the reason was supplied by other "sources".

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DaKnife
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Amen on calling Ricks by it's proper name which is Ricks.

Last time I was up rafting the Snake at Jackson Hole, there were some BYUI vans in the parking lots and I was so wishing I had some Ricks stickers to slap over the BYUI ones.

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palmetto_gal
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quote:
Amen on calling Ricks by it's proper name which is Ricks.

Last time I was up rafting the Snake at Jackson Hole, there were some BYUI vans in the parking lots and I was so wishing I had some Ricks stickers to slap over the BYUI ones.

As the parent of a BYU-Idaho student, I can attest that the history and heritage of Ricks College has not fallen by the wayside. "The Spirit of Ricks" is alive and well in Rexburg.

As far as the proper name goes, I'm pretty well satisfied with Pres. Hinckley's reasoning that the name change was made in order to help give the institution immediate national and international recognition. At any rate, if the Ricks name had been maintained, would alumni protest the fact that it would have been called "Ricks University" rather than "Ricks College"?

Last December, Pres. Eyring spoke of his transition from Stanford University to Ricks:

quote:
"Rather than being disappointed, I was charmed," he said of what he saw when he arrived in Rexburg. "I said, 'There is something here I didn't know existed, a kind of down-to-earth, deeply faithful, very able but very modest people. They saw themselves as sort of rural cousins. They were strong. These were people who were happy to be who they were; they didn't have pretensions and didn't want to be something else. They saw themselves deeply rooted in the agricultural and pioneering spirit of Idaho."

He said the people liked to tell stories of the early days of Ricks College. They told of Jacob Spori, who in 1888 became the first principal of Bannock Academy and donated part of his wages as a railroad worker to pay salaries of teachers at the school that eventually became Ricks College. "They talked about Hyrum Manwaring (Ricks College's eighth president) for whom the Manwaring Center is named. He faced such financial difficulties in keeping the school going he offered to give the campus to the State of Idaho, but they wouldn't take it.

"Ricks College had come from these struggling beginnings. I could feel that. I came in almost awe of the place. I wondered, 'Do they really know how rare they are in this world?' They were very content to be who they were. It was almost as if they were saying, 'We are deeply devoted Latter-day Saints of pioneer stock. Give me a little bit of baling wire and I can make anything work.'"



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CrowGirl
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quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason for the suspension was not released by the school, nor by the Honor Code office, nor will it be; the reason was supplied by other "sources".
All the university said was that his offense was not a criminal one. After that, they remained silent. I wish others had been, as well.
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rcaywood
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quote:
All the university said was that his offense was not a criminal one. After that, they remained silent. I wish others had been, as well.
Here is the link to the BYU Press conference with an administrator in the Honor Code office and the Athletic director (EDG, sorry for the 20 minute length). The audio is very quiet in places. They address some of your concerns Crowgirl.

Given the high ranking of the BYU basketball team, losing a player just before the beginning of tournament play merits some news and questions from national, not just local media. Also given that there are relatively few Honor Code violations that merit such a severe penalty, speculation happens in regard to reason for the dismissal and some of those reasons would be public record. If it involved criminal activity, then it would be in the Utah records and reporters could get the reason. If it was in the area of academic fraud/cheating then it would have to be reported to the NCAA and be part of that organization’s public record.
As another Utah fan and alumni here, I always have appreciated BYU and the role of the school in demonstrating the gospel’s influence in the lives of students. I have a lot of friend who went there and grew up wanting to myself. Then I went on a mission and decided that was not the place for me. The actual rules of the Honor Code never dissuaded me, but the pharisaical importance some students (and mission companions who would be attending BYU) gave to the outward manifestations of their observance to rules and minutia made me realize that I preferred a different place.
However, on the Brandon Davies situation, I was somewhat surprised to see that he was involved in cutting down the nets after BYU won on Saturday, given that the press release from BYU stated that he “will not represent the university on the men’s basketball team throughout the remainder of the 2010-11 season because of a violation of the BYU Honor Code.” [/QUOTE]
Having him on the court participating in that seemed to me to be ’representing the University’.
I understand the team wanting to show him support, I felt there was a different way to do it. If it was someone in the acting/theater program who was about to participate in a renowned production on campus, would they have been able to sit on the side of the stage during the performance and take a bow with the rest of the cast?

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mirkwood
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quote:
A church school where academics are the highest priority, and sports activities are practiced widely, on an intramural basis, instead of the "college is all abour inter-collegiate sports" freak show in which BYU must participate.
So are you opposed to collegiate sports in general, or just at church (or at least LDS church) schools?
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Zeta-Flux
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rcaywood,

Brandon tried to get out of cutting down the net. The team brought him back. It was a show of support. We are a church of repentance and we try to show an increase of love afterwards.

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rcaywood
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Thanks for that input, ZF. I am guessing you were at the game then. All I knew about it was from the local news on TV and the paper the next day.
Yes, we absolutely believe in repentance. It just surprised me that he was there on the bench. I am more used to the idea of suspension from a team meaning not being able to be with the team in a public venue until after the suspension is finished.

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johnhenry
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I'm curious now. Does suspension mean ejection from the team for a stated period or does it mean cannot play but must still attend all team meetings, attend to team chores, and sit on the bench during the games?
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