posted
So for priesthood, a young man got ordained to be an Elder in our quorum today. His mom was there, and they had her come into the EQ meeting, and the High Councilman informed us that to show proper respect everyone was to stand when she entered and then later after she left the room.
I thought it was sweet.
Do any of you folks do this too?
And as a more generic question, How do you honor the women in your life?
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posted
I would feel extremely awkward if I were the woman in that situation, on several different levels. Little niceties are no substitute for actual respect.
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You can certainly tell when respect is fake or forced and holds no meaning for those giving it.
On the other hand, society was a better place when common practices of chivelry were in place, such as opening car doors and men standing up at a table when a women arrived or stood up to leave. Women were held in greater regard then. And Men were treated like Men, not sissy boys. Gender roles were certainly clearer.
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posted
There are several men in our ward who rise when a woman enters the room, and will not sit until she does. It is tender and kind to me, because I know these men well and know it isn't for show.
I wish my husband had a little more respect for me, as a woman and as his wife. I don't say that to be critical...he just wasn't raised that way. He isn't mean spirited or intentionally hurtful, he was just raised by a single mom who is very man-like in her approach to life, and consequently, Trooper sort of doesn't "get" how he could approach the women in his life now (myself and our daughters) in a way that would promote better relationships with them.
I've tried over the years to express how a woman or girl would like to be treated, and how it is different from the way he would like to be treated. He has a hard time with sympathy and empathy, however...again a consequence of his mom's example.
I hope this doesn't come across as negative towards my husband. He is a good man, who tries very hard. He just struggles to make connections like that, and over the years he has made progress. It just remains on my "wish list".
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quote:Little niceties are no substitute for actual respect.
I have known a couple of men who were all "yes, ma'am, no ma'am" and holding doors and standing up with a flourish.
For all their putting the rest of us to shame with their conspicuous shows of chivalry, they were beating the crap out of their wives and kids in private. It eventually became "not private anymore."
Much like men with big trucks, I have a sneaking attitude that men who are so very, very polite in public are compensating for some other inappropriate private shortcoming. I really should believe better of people. But I don't.
So, I have a hard time with conspicuous shows of politeness and chivalry. I've been stabbed in the back too many times by people with a certain accent who insist that "yes, sir" and "yes, ma'am" suddenly makes them more "polite" than the rest of us.
I'll take honesty and integrity over phony conspicuous politeness any day.
I don't know. I was raised by a woman like Troopers mother (if I understand TW's post correctly), so I find some things so, well, unbearably fake.
I suppose I honor womanhood by respecting their intelligence, and strength.
On those rare occasions when the diva rears its head, I strive to not indulge it, or to at least ignore it.
posted
I don't like doing things I don't understand. There's certainly a place for that, Adam being a big object lesson in acting before being given understanding, but I don't like doing it. So outside of direct commandments of God, I normally don't do things I don't understand. A lot of the niceties of chivalry fall into that category for me. Standing up when a woman enters a room, messing around with her chair when she sits (I, for the life of me, can’t figure out what that’s even supposed to assist her with), these kind of things. So much of it does seem to be built around the idea that women are the weaker sex that I do find a lot of it to be slightly degrading more than courteous, though I know that those who perform such acts are the latter rather than the former.
The question I always struggle with in this realm isn’t so much how do I respect women, but how does that manifest itself in terms of the differences between the way I treat women and the way I treat men? And how different should it be really? I don’t know the answer to the second one, and am rarely happy with the answers I hear from others. I know that despite my opening paragraph I do follow some of the rules. I’ll stand-up to greet a woman, even if I don’t just for her entrance. On dates I’ll do my best to open car doors and what not, though that’s more about sending a message about who I am in general rather than a specific attempt to “treat women with respect”.
I think I try to focus on the less tangible elements. I live in a highly intellectualized world, so I’m more likely to focus on honoring someone or something through non-physical means. Never dismissing opinions or ideas is a big one. Honoring the radically different viewpoint women have, recognizing that they have been given gifts and attributes which I cannot reconstruct. Thus their thinking is of great value to me since I have no means by which to obtain the full picture without including a female perspective. Rather the way you’d need both an ‘x’ and ‘y’ co-ordinate to graph a complete function, the world can’t be clear unless both chromosomes have been heard from.
No, but then I don't consider it honoring womanhood anymore than shaking a man's hand or calling him sir is honoring manhood.
quote: And as a more generic question, How do you honor the women in your life?
I love them and give them and their ideas and opinions respect and weight as important people in my life.
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quote:I love them and give them and their ideas and opinions respect and weight as important people in my life.
I think that's a grea thing to do; but is it any different than how you treat men? And if not, can it really be said to be an element of how you specifically honor womanhood rather than how you honor God's children in general?
posted
Yesterday, as I was editing something to be used in our ward's Relief Society birthday celebration next month, I came across this tidbit, and wished it were somehow incorporated into the brethren's priesthood lessons:
quote:On July 17, 1877 Clarissa [Smith Williams, 6th General President of the Relief Society] married William Newjent Williams. On July 18, 1877, William left for a mission to Wales. During their marriage they had eleven children and lived to celebrate their fiftieth wedding anniversary. Family always come first in their marriage despite William’s busy life as a successful businessman and state senator.
William supported Clarissa in her Relief Society activities. She later wrote: “After I was married and had seven children, I was asked to be secretary of the Seventeenth Ward Relief Society. I felt that I could not do this with all my little babies. But my husband said, “My dear, you must do it; it is the very thing you need; you need to get away from the babies, and I will help you all I can, either by taking care of the children or making out your reports or copying your minutes, or any other thing I can do”‘ (Relief Society Magazine 15 [Dec. 1928]:668-69).
What William told Clarissa (and then lived) is the epitome of respect for women. I think it is what President Hinckley meant when he said:
quote: I’ve tried to recognize my wife’s individuality, her personality, her desires, her background, her ambitions. Let her fly. Yes, let her fly! Let her develop her own talents. Let her do things her way. Get out of her way, and marvel at what she does. (Liahona, October 2003.)
This is what respect for women is.
Just like folding arms and bowing heads is an outward symbol of reverence that is meaningless when it is unaccompanied by thoughts of love and gratitude in the heart, the acts of opening doors or rising when a woman enters a room are meaningless when they are not accompanied by the kinds of thoughts and actions exemplified by Brother Williams and President Hinckley.
quote: I think that's a grea thing to do; but is it any different than how you treat men? And if not, can it really be said to be an element of how you specifically honor womanhood rather than how you honor God's children in general?
If I say "Bob" to the woman in my life to honor them then that's how I honor the women in my life. If I also honor the men in my life by saying "Bob" it's still how I honor the women in my life. If you note the quoted question I was responding to was how I honor the woman in my life. Not how do you specifically (and uniquely) honor womanhood.
I realize sometimes the exact question being answered can get confused in situations like this when you have a general idea and a couple questions being asked in the OP. But that is why I specifically quoted the questions I was answering.
posted
You're right, I assumed from the context of the thread that you were still talking about women specifically as differed from men.
So my question is: if the response to the question "how do you honor the women in your life?" is: "I treat them like the men in my life", do you have a problem? (I note that there can often be confusion as the question is often taken as "how do you honor your wife" which has too many other considerations to be applied directly to how to honor women).
posted
I suppose it depends on the definition of respect. I feel that my husband respects me and all women. But, he treats me differently than he does other women. He shows his respect by being polite, kind, and helpful. To me, he shows his respect by those things as well as putting my needs and happiness before his own needs/wants.
I do like being treated differently than men, though. I appreciate those gestures of having doors opened for me, assistance in and out of a car, offers to assist with lifting, etc. I especially like when my husband helps me in and out of the car and escorts me to the table by placing his hand in the small of my back. Those little things makes me feel very feminine and treasured.
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quote:the High Councilman informed us that to show proper respect everyone was to stand when she entered and then later after she left the room.
I thought it was sweet.
Ever wonder why cute old couples ARE cute old couples??? It is because they praciticed acts of kindness and gentleness with each other.
We women notice when men perform nicities to thier wives. I notice that the Abq temple presidency acts that way toward thier wives, some of the local leaders do too. Unfortunatly, in my ward only about 6 men take care of their wives and daughters in a way that chivalry would smile on. Hick is one of these men. He is not a closet wife beater, though, like Sweet William, I have known families who were all show inorder to cover up what goes on behind closed doors.
quote: On the other hand, society was a better place when common practices of chivelry were in place, such as opening car doors and men standing up at a table when a women arrived or stood up to leave. Women were held in greater regard then. And Men were treated like Men, not sissy boys. Gender roles were certainly clearer.
I whole heartily agree.
This paper Femininity/Masculinity describes the blending of the genders/sexes and potiental outcomes. It is VERY long, about 23 pages, but the first page sums it up quite well.
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posted
Redd, what makes you think Sweet William is a wife beater? First, he isn't married. Second, although he can act like a crusty old man, he has kindness and respect for women. I'm curious on how you concluded he's a wife beater?
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posted
beefche, I don't think that's what Redd meant. She's not saying, "a wife beater, like Sweet William", she's saying, "I'm like Sweet William, I also know people who act one way in public, another in private."
posted
rayb: for the 'little niceties' part, everybody else explained pretty well my feelings on that. If you meant to ask why I'd feel so awkward in that situation - well, I don't want to derail your thread too much. There are some personal reasons, and maybe a little chip on my shoulder that I'm trying to get rid of. Mostly I don't like attention being called to myself, and I would feel weird enough as the only woman walking into a room full of men. If they all stood up, it would only accentuate the fact that I was alien, foreign.
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posted
Ok, di, I can see where you get that. I think the sentence is a little awkward, but WHEW! I'm glad she doesn't think SW is a wife beater. Although, maybe she meant he WEARS wife-beaters??? Posts: 3145 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I have always wondered how that standing up thing is supposed to work. Are we supposed to do it at church? There are always women and children walking in and out of the chapel. Are we supposed to stand up the entire time? How about if a woman walks in late to the Gospel Doctrine class? There must be some rules about how it is supposed to be done that I haven't been told. Where can I read more about this?
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posted
Oh, I am sooo sorry for implying that Sweet William was anything but sweet! I just happen to agree with him on this topic, all show for the public in hopes what is done privatly remains private! (World history, US taxes, gardening and food preservation I understand...English??? Not so much Posts: 2054 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Everytime I oversaw an ordinance, something that only men are allowed to participate in, I always made sure to invite the mother or spouse of the individual, if present, to offer a prayer to begin, and create an atmosphere to feel the spirit. To show that they may not be allowed to lay on hands, but their faith and prayers were very, very spiritually significant as to what was going on there. It gave them an opportunity to actually participate in their loved one's spiritual experience.
quote: show that they may not be allowed to lay on hands, but their faith and prayers were very, very spiritually significant as to what was going on there.
Well, the church used to sanction women laying on hands, but that was gradualy weeded out in the early 1900's.
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Yep, very aware of that. That's why I try to include women as much as the current policies possibly allow.
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quote: So my question is: if the response to the question "how do you honor the women in your life?" is: "I treat them like the men in my life", do you have a problem?
Depends how literally we want to take like. Something like showing both appreciation (for example) by buying gifts is great and works for both sexes, if we want to insist though that treating them alike means buying both the same types of gifts... well I suspect most men wouldn't be thrilled at being given a dress or most women thrilled at a set of wrenches (though there are of course exceptions). So there will probably be practical issues if you want to be really strict about like.
My thoughts are if you apply the same principles of respect and love to both genders there isn't anything wrong with that. I suspect people are going to disagree where the dividing line is on treating each other alike, while recognizing that people are different with different needs and desires, and honoring them separately with differing princples. I'm inclined to say even though one might buy different gifts, or give different compliments, that ultimately the underlying principle is the same.
posted
I promise I'm not a closet wifebeater. I really don't look good in a tanktop yet (plus the tucking job is a bit difficult). And, as the Jade House family would no doubt attest, my closets are too small for any activity more brutal than a carefully executed hug. And that is AFTER you toss out the scout uniforms.
Yes, I said uniforms with an "s."
But, really, Redd's inadvertent slip really points out my own private issue with a lack of Christ-like-ed-ness:
Basically, in my head (perty as it is), every man who I judge just a tad too unctuous for my curmudgeonly mien, becomes a closet wifebeater. And I think that way about him in reality.
That is so unkind.
So, thank you, Redd, for inadvertently making me think of that.
posted
When i was a young man I thought that respect for womanhood was a form of torture priesthood leaders imposed upon rowdy young boys to keep them from having any fun with them. (Why else do girls have ponytails if you can't yank them!?)
The older I get, and the more I let my wife's spirit infiltrate my own with spirituality, the more I find myself in awe of the deeply gifted and precious gift that she is. Often she doesn't see it in herself, and she can be so hard on herself, but I see it and think that if anything other than God deserves a semblance of worship it would be a virtuous woman like my wife.
I wish I could say I always treat her like a queen, but sometimes... I credit this sensibility and insight to the Restored Gospel of Christ. The strains that we find ourselves up against in gender roles at times seem so arbitrary--surely my wife would make a much better leader/priesthood holder in many respects than most men I know, but that's not how God set it up.
At first I would think that was done to torture us more, but as I slow down and ponder it, I find there are hidden truths and precious treasures in the way that God has organized families and the church.
When I saw that mom of that Elder enter, along with his girl friend, and his grandmother, I had this sense of awe. These were women that deserved deep abiding respect--some of their faces careworn and tired with worldly travails--still, I couldn't help but feel something important was happening.
I wonder if we truly knew and saw God's daughters the way He sees them if we wouldn't all want to rise to our feet to be in their presence. There are angels among us, their dominions in the world of men seem forgettable, but in God's realms infinite.
posted
Any sense of awe at the highly precious son of God who entered your presence? This choice child of God who was fulfilling his duties and obligations as directed by the Lord in obtaining, and being worthy for, the Melchizedek priesthood?
I wonder if we truly knew and saw God's sons the way He sees them if we wouldn't all want to rise to our feet to be in their presence.
That's one of my personal issues with some of the Sister worship that sometimes rears it's head in the Church (no I'm not calling social niceties like holding open doors or standing up when a woman enters the room Sister worship, nor this thread). It seems to go beyond recognizing and honoring women as having immense worth as daughters of God (which is true and a good thing to recognize and teach) and bleeds into this idea that they don't just have immense worth, but that such worth is greater than the sons of God (a pernicious untruth). My God isn't a respecter of persons and loves both his daughters and his sons immensely and sees both as having great worth and value.
Now before anyone takes me the wrong way, I don't think one can't mention the worth of the Daughters of God without immediately turning around and saying, "His sons rock too!" Ray's comments are a jumping off point for my own tangent and not to accuse him of Sister worship. I simply don't know him well enough to accuse him of that.
posted
I guess I don't understand why when a compliment is given to one, there's always someone offended that we didn't compliment everyone everytime with every word...
Look deeper... and Roper, you should hold the door for the ward gossip, even if you personally judge her unworthy of it. You're better than that.
quote:On the other hand, society was a better place when common practices of chivalry were in place, such as opening car doors and men standing up at a table when a women arrived or stood up to leave. Women were held in greater regard then.
I've been watching Downton Abbey. Those men all stood up whenever a woman entered a room. I don't know that women were held in greater regard back then -- they were treasured, but they were not considered equals of intellect or ability. It's funny that even though they were put on pedestals they were still not treated with as much respect as just considering their ideas and desires on a same level with men's. (Of course, it wasn't the men's fault entirely; this was the society they lived in, and it took world war to begin to change the idea of what women were really capable of doing.)
Perhaps we could get back to all respecting each other more without losing the equalities we have gained. I like men who respect and honor women, and aren't coarse around them and help them out with physical things when that's appropriate. I like women who respect and honor men, and help them out with things women are better at without belittling them for not being good at everything. I don't mind that our leaders recognize that we are different, and make an effort to show their respect and honor for those who are different from themselves, without belittling those who are the same as themselves.
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quote: I guess I don't understand why when a compliment is given to one, there's always someone offended that we didn't compliment everyone everytime with every word...
Eh, I'm neither offended not do I think you need to compliment everyone if you compliment someone. Actually that last bit is explicitly disclaimed in my post. So if you are referring to me your comment is miss-aimed.
To be fair I can see how my post could be taken as a, "Waah! You didn't compliment X!"
quote: Roper, you should hold the door for the ward gossip, even if you personally judge her unworthy of it. You're better than that.
I suspect this is miss-aimed too. He said he doesn't have to respect her to hold the door open for her. The implication being he'd hold the door open for a woman even if he doesn't respect her*.
*Which is exactly why I don't connect things like holding the door open with respecting women.
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quote:I guess I don't understand why when a compliment is given to one, there's always someone offended that we didn't compliment everyone everytime with every word...
I don't think this is the case.
More frequently, there seems to be a subtle, spoken put down to men, nearly every time women are praised.
I am always perplexed by some need to say in other words "women are great" and "I wish men were."
There seems to be a need on the part of some speakers to make comparisons. It seems to be never enough to simply say "Hey! Look at this. Isn't it great?" There always has to be "And it's way better than that over there."
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posted
JennaDean, my wife has been watching Downtown Abbey as well. She needs to be careful about glorifying a fictional world. She told me how great the Lord was and how much good they did and how they kept out of scandals. When in real life, Lords were so often involved in philandering it wasn't even news.
In some ways there were fairness issues. Lots of class distinction. Why did the men only stand when a LADY entered the room, and not a female servant? And scalability issues. Not everyone could be a Lord. Lots more servants and workers than Lords.
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quote:She needs to be careful about glorifying a fictional world.
And I suppose next you'll tell us that real vampires are voracious sex addicts who burn up in sunlight. As if. Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Actually the double negative may be making my statement difficult to decipher. My intent was that one can compliment the daughters of God without having to immediately turn around and compliment the sons of God. The key for me is immediately, because it would mean Ray has to either in this thread, or right now in a new thread, talk about honoring manhood. Which I don't feel is required.
More generally speaking (such as speaking of the Church, parents, or teachers) we need to make sure people don't walk away thinking one sex is more precious in the eyes of God. Which can be a side effect of the 'sister worship' I mentioned and why I dislike it.
Or maybe you managed to parse my code correctly, in which case carry on.
posted
I think we kind of need to stop searching for offense on this topic. It's like the mother who gets irritated when another mother talks about how cute she thinks her kids are.
There is enough love and praise to go around, especially when we are talking about our Heavenly Father. Nothing I am or have diminishes anyone else in His eyes.
We don't have to blow out someone else's candle to make ours shine brighter.
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posted
I guess I'm kind of annoyed by the turn of the discussion.
I wanted to hear about how men honored women. Or if any men around here went out of their way to honor a woman because she was a woman--not just a human being.
To me the outward gesture we were instructed to do for this Elder's mom felt so right in the moment. I wondered if there were other outward gestures that a man might do... because I'm pretty clueless about the battle of the sexes... Sigh...
Yeah, I get it, we're all children of God. But that wasn't the point... I am starting to gather from this thread that people simply don't make a distinction anymore. In society we don't do it because it's old fashioned. In the church we don't bother because we're all enlightened as to the nature of God's children all being equally valuable and we daren't accidentally send a message that we aren't such by doing something nice for a person because they're a woman.
I guess I'll take all you fine words and will inform my High Councilman how his notion of standing for a woman entering a quorum meeting is an arbitrary gesture that's meaningless at best.
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