posted
Sometimes I think I am the really clueless parent.
We never put any filters on our computers at all ( except spam, virus and firewall thingys) and both kids were generally unmonitored (although we did have to stop them some years back from just typing any old thing into the search bar after some sites showed up in the history that were inappropriate.) I have to say that sometimes I think they spend too much time on the computer (watching movies , manga, and some gaming...)but their schoolwork is very computer based so I can hardly limit it. They don't watch much TV but the news. They have full, active, social and community interaction. They also have had cell phones since they began to leave the village for school and we pay for them with the expectation that they stay inside the minute limit. They have never ever offended our trust. With the removal of most public pay phones, it has become essential to have cells.
So when I come online and read that many of the same aged children of other good Saints have had all kinds of limits and filters and restrictions, I begin to worry that we did something outside the Prophet's advice that I missed.
On the other hand, nearly 18 and 19 they are moral, trustworthy, savvy, witty, socially acceptable. modest, and generally a cut above most teens their age.
Did we dodge a bullet? Were we just incredibly lucky?
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posted
Jana, you are clearly good parents who are involved in the lives of your children. Your kids listen to and respect you. That's not luck, that's pure awesome.
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I did the same as you Jana, but I've heard other parents tell of the great lengths they go to to restrict their kids' access. I even heard of parents of young adults, including returned missionaries, who had filters on the computer, limited the amount of time they were allowed to use it, made computer use only allowed in the family room, and even locked up the computer at night when the parents went to bed. I understand that they're trying to protect their children from a great evil, but they can always go to a friend's house or even the public library to view whatever they want. I chose to teach my kids good values, help them learn to make good decisions, and trust them. I got lucky and it worked.
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posted
There are things you can accidentally stumble across online that will reduce your joy and increase your misery, and burden your mortal life for years, if not permanently. Just by looking. Even if you look away quickly.
Your dang straight we filter away mature content on our kid's ipods and the home computers. Some of it still manages to creep through innocently, but pretty much not the traumatizing horrible stuff.
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posted
Jana and Cindytee (and anyone else that wants to chime in), Out of curiosity- how do you know that your children don't access porn?
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quote:There are things you can accidentally stumble across online that will reduce your joy and increase your misery, and burden your mortal life for years, if not permanently. Just by looking. Even if you look away quickly.
And that is what prompted me to put a filter on immediately - too late. I had thought for years of doing it, but when sitting in FHE and talking about what is on the computer and my sweet, innocent 13yo girl started crying because she felt guilty when she stumbled across porn looking up a school assignment I immediately put a filter on. Of course we talked that she wasn't guilty. That she had done things right - except next time it might be good to talk with us. She shouldn't have had to deal with that in her own home.
Our stake president did give us counsel last year - put a filter on your computer, don't give teens phones with web access and a couple of other things. He gave these recommendations because of the time spent with people coming into his office.
Are you just lucky Jana? Yes, and no. Of course good parenting goes into this and that isn't luck, but children of good parents find themselves in trouble with the web etc. as well as children who don't have good parents.
posted
first, trust. N.B. now that David is an adult, and has thrown over his spiritual life, his choices are his. I hardly expect him to go see, but I am sure his buddies might and... he is a big boy now.
That being said: Define porn. Toleration levels are a mostly a relative thing based on local norms. I live in a society that is pragmatic about nakedness, students travel in mixed company and sleep in the same rooms, topless is not unusual on beaches. TV and all advertising here is probably far outside many an American comfort zone. Out on the street we learn to "not look " at the sex shops and the bill boards, and all-purpose changing rooms , at home we turn the channel on commercials. We teach teach teach personal morals and decency: we listen listen and ask pointed questions. Andries and I have really high yuk factors and we are verbal about it. If my kids are the worlds greatest liars, it is because they have chosen to disrespect every moment of their lives and every person in the family. God will get them for it.
If we used the standards I grew up with we would live in a cave with no computer, never go anywhere and would get high fines because we wouldn't send our kids to school because the books they are required to read are shocking. You do what you have to do.
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posted
I am so sorry that some kids carry guilt for accidental glimpses into the underbelly of life. Life is crazy hard enough without kids taking on extra guilt. My guys are more like "oh that is pure crap", and move on- or we talk about it at the dinner table. but then we don't have to go to computers or TV for a good dose of sin, our ward teaches by example. Perhaps there is an advantage to having a convicted porn and incest father in our ward.
His boy is now same gender obssessed and his girls are both in therapy... and it all started with porn.
edited to add: my remarks are not directed at or to anyone. Nauvoo is not the only place I interact with other Saints. There are enough pro-active parents around that I started to think things over. We just do not use filters here in land- they are around but not one family I know uses them, outside or inside the church and we have Calvinistic stock here. Puritan is their middle name.
[ May 04, 2012, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: jana at jade house ]
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quote:I am so sorry that some kids carry guilt for accidental glimpses into the underbelly of life.
I would agree, but guilt like that is best handled with frank open discussions and love and acceptance - things that are supposed to happen before the glimpse, and it's usually ok if it happens after the glimpse.
But what I'm trying to protect them from, isn't adequately described as a 'glimpse into the underbelly of life'. As I sit here and try to find a vague description, I can't think of much that wouldn't earn me a ban, even for speaking vaguely.
I have described things to various adults at various times. Without exception, the conversations go like this:
quote:Them: "No really - I want to know."
Me: "No, you really don't."
Them: "Come on. I can handle it. [insert random justification here]."
Me: "Ok then. [brief description]"
Them: [2 shades paler] "Ew! Gross! You never should have told me that! Now I'm going to have nightmares! I need to go take a shower!"
This stuff is not what Jana is describing. I'm guessing not a lot of people have seen what I've seen. You have no idea how fortunate you are. Every couple of years, I read some new article about how early exposure to traumatic images actually can alter how the still-forming brain works - in ways that can be permanent. All the normal people out there, when they evoke a pleasurable emotion, a certain area of the brain lights up. For those traumatized by these images, a totally different area of the brain lights up - one usually associated with feelings of guilt, or speech, or smell.
No really - the human knowledge base tells me that we no longer need a prophetic statement on the matter, to understand that kids are two clicks away from things that can be as harmful as wandering into the Fukushima reactor an hour after the tsunami hit. It's not just about trust, it's about protecting them from the dangers of accidental exposure.
posted
Now Jana, I have absolutely no issues with how you have done things- I wish I was half the mother you are. But you asked if there was counsel on this and I remember hearing some and my husband and I talking about it and so I did a quick search and here is what I found:
These are all regarding filters and where to place the computer. There are more out there this is just a few of what I came across. We have treated the cell phone like a mini personal computer of sorts. Although we do not allow our children to have phones with the internet on it. We reserve the right to monitor and check up on things but we don't do so constantly.
Here is what we do in our family- computer out in the family room and does not get used after 10 pm at night unless they have permission (our filter locks by time). We have a filter on it, we like that for our own personal browsing also, it blocks alot of pop us and ads too. And I would just assume have my home to be a fairly safe haven, with the full understanding that a filter does not block everything and any filter is fairly easy to get around (my hubby is a computer geek and very aware of all that it doesn't protect against). We see filters and passwords more as an road block that makes you think twice about the decision you are making, it may not prevent you from getting around it but it gives you an opportunity to turn back.
All cell phones- ours included, have a home in the kitchen were they go to bed after 9 pm kids and 10 pm adults. Less distractions less temptation. Only my husbands phone has internet. He uses it for work. We reserve the right to read txt messages but honestly only do so when prompted- same with facebook emails etc. . . Haven't been prompted much but when we were our kids were grateful for the early intervention and help.
We have parental controls on our tv, husband and I like it because it has made us really think about our viewing choices also.
We generally do our TV viewing together as a family and always explain o the kids why we make the choices we do. We talk constantly about our values and standards and thought processes and really don't have many battles with the kids so I figure we must be doing okay so far.
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posted
So basically not only were we extremely lucky, but we also dodged a bullet.
I wonder why the leadership in this part of the world even with easy to access porn, sex shops and adult shows on regular TV, NEVER talks about filters -- I would not even know where to get one. And cell phones, cripes no one talksd anymore, everyone texts ( except me- if you wanna talk to me call me at home or email in a pinch. I have about 7 million hours of rollover on my cell ( handy while traveling:)) I seriously wonder how we have any faithful Saints at all in the Netherlands because our church/life experience is so far removed from the center. Makes me appreciate the tough core of those few hardy faithful who trudge on for all their lives here, living on the edge of Sodom.
On the other hand, it would probably drive a huge wedge between me and Himself if I controlled every minute of the kids TV, computer and cell usage. Especially now they are young adults. He is not happy that I regularly expect(ed) them to do household chores and attend Seminary on test weeks. Dutch kids to age 18 are expected to study. Period. We have had an uneasy truce about this. Luckily we don't struggle much over leadership.
sigh.
[ May 04, 2012, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: jana at jade house ]
Posts: 5468 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Jana I don't control every minute per say we have general rules and guidelines that they have known about for years and they work within them. Just like your seminary and household chores rules. And at 18 our rules, monitoring etc will go down some as they will be adults and more responsibility will fall on them although we will still have some general everyone in the house rules.
As for texting I am constantly amazed that my girls will have entire conversations through texting that take 2-3 times as long as if they would just call them and actually talk to them. Drives me nuts!!!!!
Jana- I don't think you were only extremely lucky. I think you are a fantastic parent and your kids have benefited from you doing such a good job.
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posted
Jana, perhaps the reason why it is seldom mentioned where you are is because it's not as big of a problem as it is elsewhere. I don't know... you actually live there, so you'd probably know better than any of my speculations. Posts: 171 | Registered: Feb 2012
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posted
What LM said is truth. I know this from personal experience, although I really wish I didn't. In my case, the experience was foisted on me as a child by my sociopathic self-serving father. And more detail than that I won't give. This stuff I've barely been able to bring some up with therapists, and even then, not in huge detail. To call it a burden is greatly underestimating the extent of the damage it does.
It's only through at least 20,000 miracles that I've ended up doing as well as I have. I was *not* set up for a happy healthy life.
Posts: 4279 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
The good news is that filtering software can be free, easy, and unobtrusive. It's not about watching every single second a kid is online. It's about making it so a computer can't go to the bad places, either from an unintentional user action or an intentional one.
We like K9 Web Protection. It's free, you can easily customize it (keep the sites with politics, violence, P2P file sharing, personals/dating, and sex education if you like, block the extreme sexually explicit stuff and spyware only).
If it blocks something it shouldn't, it's quick and easy to unblock it forever. Just type in the admin password and click "Allow this site" for 10 min, or 1 day, or permanetnly.
posted
Although this probably won't happen with the intelligent people of Nauvoo, I'm concerned that the presence of filters might give a false sense of security.
I don't believe that there is any program that can examine an image and determine whether or not it is pornographic. I can't imagine how such a program would even be possible. A filter can only receive intelligence based on the opinions that are given to it from whatever source, and no entity is big enough to have evaluated every image on the Internet.
So be good parents, like Jana. And hope that your kids are as good as you think they are. Maybe they are.
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posted
For me though it's not about making choices. I've run into images I didn't want to see either. Yes, I can click away from them, but I didn't want to see them in the first place. With the filter I haven't had a single problem with that yet.
Randy - that's true. It won't catch everything, but it's nice to surf when it is catching most of it.
Posts: 4943 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Randy's correct. A filter will take something that has a 2% chance of happening accidentally, and turn it into a .05% chance. But it isn't perfect.
And of course, any willful person with a few brain cells to rub together can get around such things if they want to hard enough.
Posts: 2103 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Andries and I had some conversation about this. We both use the computer to research; I shop on the computer; and regularly use FB and other programs on the web. I have had a caution over 18 pop up twice in 10 years. And that was because I was looking for large size dress shoes like a crossdresser would use.(desperation) He has had a cat house show up on his search for a hotel once. Our providers filter most spam especially the racy pharma ones that caused a HUGE stink here a while back.
I now I am wondering since the EU has hugely cracked down on cyberporn here; does the EU have filters in place already? We have a huge religious conservative population. I assume that is why we for instance, have regulations on adult content commercials and shows---well after normal bedtimes for kidlets. (edit: David says he doubts there are filters because of the freedom to internet access rules, but there is a projected program to have layered access to adult content in the works. One sign of this is the "are you 18?" pop up.)
I don't know--it would seem the access to adult content is not as simple here as it is in the US.
[ May 06, 2012, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: jana at jade house ]
Posts: 5468 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
That's certainly possible. There's a idealistic streak in the US that casts every discussion on such topics in the light of freedom of speech and keeping the net free and self-regulating and all that. We go back and forth with supreme court decisions and cultural shifts and whatnot, but as things stand now, the current winning notion is that you should be able to find whatever you want on the net, and you have the individual responsibility to regulate what comes in to your home.
Other places' mileage may vary.
Posts: 2103 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Jana,reading this thread that was one of my thoughts as well. I've been using internet on a daily basis for some 20 years now (has been around that long?). This was one the countries at the beginning that had most connections per people... I've never had a pop up or encoutered anything really bad while doing searches. I have had search results that give away I should not click on those and I've had a few popups that are underwear adds, but even those I can count with one hand. We don't have any specific filters on our computers either, but I don't know if they come some filter equipped when we buy them. But I've been using school, university and public internets also.
I have seen a few horrible sites I wish I hadn't. That happened when I was in school teaching and some kids were talking about some sites (I used to teach them computers, 11-12 year olds) and I wanted to check them before telling them off about looking at them. (They didn't see them at school, but home and spoke about them in school.) They weren't sexual though, but something else they should look at.
So I'm wondering also if it is different even when it is world wide web.
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posted
I've only had problems with inappropriate pop ups and such when someone else had been using the internet irresponsibly. My little nephew asked to borrow my laptop for a little bit so he could do some research for his paper, and I guess his googling lead him to some places that messed my system up somewhat. Not that he was looking at porn or anything (I checked the history), but somewhere along the line he must have clicked on something that was off. It might have been from the pictures he downloaded, I don't know. In any case, some cleaning up and a virus scan later, all was fine.
Sometimes I'll see something sketchy when I do a Google Search, even with the Safe Search on. But for the most part, as long as people aren't being gullible or stupid about where they go to do research, or download stuff, I've been fine.
Posts: 171 | Registered: Feb 2012
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posted
I've not encountered a lot. Once I saw a picture when I was looking for images of a governor/actor. The worst I have seen is when someone on my other message board wanted to have a thread pulled so she posted a picture that sickens me now still 5 years later.
I see more intimate pictures when I am searching for images than when I am searching for other things. Unfortunately images is what children need for school many times. I've had google settings to help with that, but it doesn't catch everything that my filter does.
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posted
It was late at night. I asked that it be removed and it was removed right away. I don't know that moderators ever saw it.
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posted
If it was at LDS.net, the mods there probably remove bad links and ban people at least several times a week.
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posted
well, THAT is a candidate for the "What is wrong with people" contest! I know even on Nauvoo people can get their skirts flipped, but MOST of the time, it is just a conversation: an exchange of viewpoint and information from one side of the Kingdom to the other. It is a chief reason why Nauvoo works so well: the Gospel is inclusive, and is elastic. We all share one core idea and goal.
It is often quite interesting and certainly thought provoking to see other well meaning , active Saints ideas on any one of a number of subjects.
But to post something so egregious to get a thread changed. Pooh, at the very least terrible manners.
quote: Sometimes I think I am the really clueless parent.
Only sometimes? You're way ahead of me!
quote: Did we dodge a bullet? Were we just incredibly lucky?
I’ve been inclined to teach my kids how to make choices that will keep them safe rather than making sure that the never face an unsafe situation. Yet I can appreciate parents who see filters as due diligence. This is one of those situations where you base your actions on principles, not outcomes. No matter what parental style you follow you can still end up with a child in trouble or with all your kids choosing the right. You do what you feel is right. Having said that, my kids didn’t grow up from birth with computers in the home. If I was raising a young family right now, I might feel more strongly about the need for filters.
If you find out that your kids are making bad choices, then I can see filters as being a necessity. You can’t stop a kid from using computers outside the home, but you can certainly take steps to ensure “not in my house!”
I don’t think that there is any single image a child can glimpse that can’t fade in their mind over time. Without going into TMI territory, I’m speaking from some extreme personal experiences. I chose what kind of person I wanted to be. We are all accountable (especially as parents) for what kind of influence we have on others, but eventually your kids have to choose for themselves who they will be.
Posts: 304 | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:I don’t think that there is any single image a child can glimpse that can’t fade in their mind over time. ... but eventually your kids have to choose for themselves who they will be.
This is true. It is also true that there is no single torture or beating or arm-breaking or leg-getting-chopped-off that a child can experience that won't eventually heal to whatever extent is possible. Such physical traumas do not have to define the person. Eventually, kids who have encountered such trauma will have to choose for themselves who they will be.
Just to repeat myself - every year or two that goes by, brings us more science about how traumatic experiences and images can and do create physical changes in how the brain forms and works.
Yes indeed, people can eventually usually choose for themselves who they will be. In my mind, the question is about what possible traumas you are ok with exposing your kids to, and what do you want to protect them from.
Filters aren't as horrible and unwieldy as they used to be. An unobtrusive internet filter that runs in the background makes as much sense to me as childproof caps on medicine bottles. Or designing cigarette lighters so only someone with enough muscle strength can work it. Or locking up upir guns.
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posted
Perhaps there is a way to meet the needs of both philosophies. Add the filters to home and personal devices, but also discuss periodically what is an appropriate response to encountering undesirable images and/or text on an unfiltered computer. I can agree with keeping the home as a safe sanctuary where these thnigs can't happen, but our kids also need to be told what the real world is like and be told what to do if they become ensnared -- encourage them to seek help and support and not let the shame of it lead them to try to free themselves on their own.
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For me and my wife, anything likely to seriously traumatize/injure/harm them, is something to protect them from. Anything else (and pretty much 98% of life falls into this category) is something to have discussions about, place trust, encourage, let them choose and fall and learn and repent, etc.
Things are complicated, because what will seriously harm one kid, will not scratch another. Such is life as a parent.
Funny story: My wife accidentally installed pornography on all of our iPods one day. She had a free music download from somewhere, picked a song she liked, and downloaded it.
Problem #1: Nothing wrong with the song, but there was something wrong with the album cover (basically, a not-quite-prOn woman on a bed with some arms wrapped around her various bits)
Problem #2: The album cover didn't appear until after the song was downloaded.
Problem #3: Both kids' iPods group-sync through the cloud. (If you don't know what this means, like I didn't, it basically means what you install on one device shows up on all devices like magic)
Problem #4: By the time we parents got wind of it, said song was now one of their favorite songs, having been played over 50 times.
Yeah, can you say ?
So we put a positive spin on it, and used the occasion to teach our kids about the birds and the bees. I think it turned out ok.
quote: Perhaps there is a way to meet the needs of both philosophies. Add the filters to home and personal devices, but also discuss periodically what is an appropriate response to encountering undesirable images and/or text on an unfiltered computer. I can agree with keeping the home as a safe sanctuary where these thnigs can't happen, but our kids also need to be told what the real world is like and be told what to do if they become ensnared -- encourage them to seek help and support and not let the shame of it lead them to try to free themselves on their own.
I didn't see anyone who uses a filter say hey I have a filter no need to talk to my kids. I didn't see anyone advocating that approach. In fact I seemed to get the impression from those talking about a filter was that it was an add on to the talk with your kids approach. Seeing someone say that the middle ground is what I thought the filter proponents were saying all along helps explain to me some of the comments made. I didn't get the opposition to filters but if you are thinking those that use it don't talk to there kids then I get it better. Of course we talk to our kids, all the time. For many reasons, one no filter is perfect and two we are under no illusions that they don't use any other computers, that all computers are filtered or that they can't get around the filters.
To me it is kind of like gun safety. (loose analogy bear with me) You teach your kids about guns, maybe even how to use them- head out to the shooting range etc, you make sure they know what to do and not do when one is around and how to handle those situations. But you also don't leave a loaded gun just laying around unsupervised for your kids to get to, You keep it properly stored in a safe and secure location.
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posted
A lot of it is about the purpose of the filter. Purpose one is to protect them from accidently stumbling across something. Purpose two is to actively block them from accessing things they want but you don't want them to have/see. Of course the ideal is the first, but I absolutely recognize that the second is sometimes a necessity. However, as a former kid, I'd say the second one really should be a last resort. It completely changes the dynamic ("I'm here to protect to" becomes "I want to limit your freedom" and "we're in this together" becomes "we are enemies in this battle") as well means that they will actively try to get around either at home or other locations (or when they leave home in how many years) and seek out what is banned if only because it is banned. How it's approached with the kid is the biggest thing but there are a lot of way to show trust in them. If there's total faith (and again, I'm not saying a good parent would, rather the right circumstances would allow a good parent to have total faith) then sharing the password is a pretty big sign of that: allowing them to bypass the filter when it's editing out fine results. Not monitoring what they're looking at (again, age and trust dependent) etc... A lot of this seems to be discussion of pretty young kids, but I know watching people come into YSA wards right from home... well you could tell some of those who were given highly limited freedom at home even at 18. Some them did fine of course, adjusted to the world without going overboard, but a lot did not.
posted
Odd duck that I am, my home computer is an Ubuntu system. Thus blocking porn sites is a matter of adding a suitable entry to the /etc/hosts file.
I have a long list of such entries. The vast majority were downloaded as a single list from a public-domain filter site some time ago. (No, I don't remember where, but if you're interested, remember that Google can be your friend.)
However, I've added a few additional sites as I've stumbled across them. My intent primarily is to avoid having the images unexpectedly paraded before my face, or Cosette's, or anyone else borrowing my machine.
I think what I would teach a son is: If you accidentally hit such a site, write down the URL so we can add it to /etc/hosts. I have no expectation that I could keep a son from deliberately seeking out such sites. The Internet was specifically designed to be difficult to censor.
Incidentally, I've discovered I can also block obnoxious ad and popup sites this way. I've been hesitant to do so because the ads are paying for the Internet content I view, so it seems like a question of honesty. If the ad is offensive, I do it anyway. I'd be interested in folks' opinion on this practice.
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