posted
I have a 14 year old daughter (15 in October) who is starting high school this fall. She met a boy at school in 8th grade and they started up a relationship mostly behind our backs. On graduation night, she wanted to go to a local hangout with "friends" which I later found out included him. Then I caught her that night sending him a pic (that he relentlessly pressured her into sending) of her in just her bra and panties. He actually wanted a nude pic, but thankfully she refused to do that. I took her phone away immediately and discovered thru reading her messages that they had made out that same night and he had wanted to go farther. My husband and I were furious. We took her phone away, facebook, and every other freedom we could. But something in me keeps telling me that I can't make her "break up" with him because she would just sneak around more and resent us too much. Plus, in the fall she will have the ability to see him all the time at school. I gave her her cell phone back but I have spyware on there and she knows I can see every text message. I also watch her facebook very carefully. But she keeps wanting to go to the park and meet him there to hang out, and go to summer volleyball practice (which involves more hanging out than actual practice), and I let her do it, but my rule is that someone (like me or her dad) has to be with her. She keeps insisting that nothing is going on (ha ha) and that we are being mean. I don't know what to do anymore. A part of me just wants to let her go and do whatever, but a much bigger part of me knows that's wrong. I'm also tired of dealing with all of this drama caused by this stupid boy.
What can I do? I made her talk to our branch pres after the picture thing, and she's leaving for a Nauvoo youth trip in 2 days. I'm just at a loss as to what to do. If I make her break up with him, she will hold it against me forever (yes, she is that type of person) and she will just do more to sneak around, especially when school starts. I want to maintain the open, strong relationship we have always shared. But I can't seem to make her understand that what she is doing is wrong. I had a boyfriend at 14/15 and she keeps "reminding" me of that (and I keep reminding her that it was a huge mistake)
posted
This is a hard one. This on-line site claims that between 20-60% on kids are involved. As for the restrictions you have put on her, make sure she realizes that you trusted her in the past and would like to trust her in the future but because of her actions, she will need to earn that trust back. Be specific in how she can do that and let her know that it may take a while. 14 is so young, but again, according to this article, kids as young as 9 may be sexting. Are cell phones even available anymore that do not have cameras?
As for the boyfriend, my instinct would be to say no contact but you are probably right. Perhaps a compromise would be that he could come over to your house when groups of kids are there and then under strict chaperone - reminding her of course, it is that matter of trust that needs to be restored. No pairing. Perhaps you could have that type of 'talk to the boy' that scares the kid. No threats but stern - maybe in the presence of his parents. And yes, make sure his parents are aware of the sexting and the pressure he put on her. Hopefully, they will care.
Another topic that needs to be addressed with her are possible consequences. (article again) Stress that whatever she sent as a text or an email, she has no control over what is done with it. Is she comfortable knowing that the kid she thinks as a creep may be panting over her photo of her in her underwear? Does she realize that not only that guy but the creeps that get their jollies looking at child pornography may be using her photo and sharing it with like minded people?
And then there are the legal consequences. I remember a few years ago a group of students in Utah were charged with distributing child pornography. Being labeled a life-long sex offender is not anything one wants. Because it is so common now, maybe that is not so likely.
After you have your conversation with your daughter, you might consider going to the school and asking for the school to have a night for parents and kids about this subject.
posted
I found evidence that my then 15 year old had been doing similar things with her boyfriend. As a side note, we were not yet members, I had previously met not only the boy but also his family, and i had no concerns until this point. I had one conversation with Bug about what I had found, and my focus was primarily on whether she had gone any further than what was documented and then on how to deal with his advances. A couple days later, his parents were having a yard sale... and I went over to chat with them during the sale. His parents clearly handled things very differently than I did, because we didn't see hide nor hair of him for the remainder of that summer.
Posts: 1109 | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
My husband and I would like to meet his parents, but I don't think it would do any good. I met his mom briefly before this happened and she definitely didn't even closely share the values we have. I get the feeling that he was only doing what he has learned from his family (cousins) and friends. We did text him a few times right after the picture incident and the kid didn't seem to understand that we will not allow her to date until 16, even after we told him several times. He would just apologize and then ask us again. He claims to "have never felt this way about another girl (um, your 14, of course you haven't!) and that he couldn't stand to wait that long. I've given her all the standard lectures (we are only trying to protect you, you have your whole life to be in love, if yall really loved each other then you can wait, etc.) and it just seems to go in one ear and out the other. I'm just at a loss. I just wish I could lock her up and throw away the key so she is safe.
Posts: 35 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
I remember once being a chaperone at a youth temple trip. (12 hour cruise on a cruise ship one way). At the cabin when we went to bed the Stake President's daughter, 14 at the time, talked about her boyfriend in her school. Of which the parents knew nothing about. I don't know if the ever knew, I don't know how long the relationship lasted, but I know she's always been a terrific girl, is very serious about the gospel, served a great mission... Just saying that dating doesn't necessarily equal disaster and if the kids want to do it, they'll find ways to do it without parents knowing.
So I'd be more concerned about sending that almost nude picture and of possible consequences of certain actions. I'd talk thoroughly about the issues with my daughter, more than once or twice, explaining the why's. I'd explain how extremely easy it is to slip in the heat of the moment to do things I'd regret. I'd talk about things physical and hormonal and about feelings and about doctrines. I'd talk about sex a lot, how it's such a good and beautiful thing God wants us to wait. I'd talk about love and things people call love but isn't. I'd explain all the consequences, including how'd you feel when you're about to kneel on the altar at the temple and you'd know you're not a virgin anymore when you so much would like to be.
I'd invite the boy to our home. I'd explain to him, that he is welcome to come to our home any time he wants (I'd be at home pretty much after school everyday too). That he can come to church and church functions with her any time he wants. There is a chance this feeling he's never experienced is actually the Spirit.
I'd have the same discussions about the situation with him that I had with daughter, no matter how much she'd oppose it. And I'd explain our rules to his parents, even if they don't agree with them. I'd plead as a mother to a mother for her to help him respect those rules. I'd invite the whole family to spend time with our family, as much as possible.
I wouldn't refuse her to see the guy, like you said, it might just make her want to it more. I'd like to include him in the family, not keep her as a prisoner.
Posts: 827 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
3 questions: 1. Why does a 14 year old NEED a phone. (All right. Maybe you can justify that one.) 2. Why does a 14 year old NEED a phone with a camera? 3. Why does a 14 year old NEED a phone with a data plan that accesses the internet? (We call it "Porn in Your Pocket.")
We were the meanest parents in the world. We told our teenagers they could have a phone when they could pay for it. On dates or at other times, they could borrow mine that had no camera and no data plan. When they could afford their own phone it could not have a camera or a data plan until they moved out of the house. They survived.
I talk to the kids in my ward about the difference between "love" and "lust." That if someone loves you they will respect you when you say things like "I can't date until I am 16." If they are "in lust," they will find ways to work around the rules with "hangouts." If they are in love, they care deeply about your feelings and respect them. If they are "in lust" they don't.
I tell the girls that they are the ones that are thinking the most straight in a relationship because boys are so slow to mature. (They like that thought and relate to it.) I tell the boys that they are given the priesthood as a reminder of how they can control their thoughts, or at least control turning those thoughts into action. You can talk about the wisdom of waiting until 16 to date to give girls the chance to mature and gain the knowledge to keep the boys away until they can mature in, oh, say about 20 years. We're still waiting for a son-in-law to grow up in a lot of ways, and he is 32! Seriously: this can be a fun discussion with girls. Pointing out the immaturity of boys.
I talk to both groups about the wisdom in never being completely alone with the opposite sex. ALL THE TIME.
And my number one rule: "Nothing good happens after midnight." My 20 year old still has a midnight curfew unless there is something really special.
You need to continue to keep the lines of communication open with your daughter. Try not to lecture but to still get your feelings across. And it doesn't always have to be serious. Talk about how 14 year old boys love to get together and write their names in the snow. How they love sneaking off and skinny dipping at scout camp. Or burning things.
Ask her if she showed even one of her girlfriends the pictures he sent her. Because he is surely showing the pictures she sent to him of her to his friends, and how does she like that? Boys just think differently about things like this. This is where Dad can step in and explain how he was when he was 14. Posts: 11569 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do not have kids of any age, which normally means I wouldn't comment on this. Especially since I did not grow up in a LDS home and thus didn't have to worry about this specific manifestation of the parent-child relationship. And it probably also means my advice will not be given much credence, but there was one item I wanted to bring up anyway.
quote:...thankfully she refused to do that. I took her phone away immediately and discovered thru reading her messages that they had made out that same night and he had wanted to go farther. My husband and I were furious. We took her phone away, facebook, and every other freedom we could.
...
I've given her all the standard lectures (we are only trying to protect you, you have your whole life to be in love, if yall really loved each other then you can wait, etc.) and it just seems to go in one ear and out the other.
As a former child, I would say I'm now more likely to act inappropriately then before. I would ask, prior to this, how is your relationship with your daughter? Would you be able to sit down and talk together about dating before this happened? If so, I strongly encourage you to take just such an approach now. Without knowing a thing about your daughter, I can guarantee you she sees what you’ve done as a knee-jerk, unthinking, uncaring reaction.
As long as she views you and your husband as antagonizers or punishers she will be unable to listen to anything you have to say (and no matter how true it is, I’m not sure the “we’re punishing you for your sake, not ours” explanation has ever worked). She’s reaching an age where punishment will stop changing her behavior to avoid it, and start encouraging her to lie, hide her actions, or even just outright rebel. That doesn’t mean no consequences, but it does mean the type of responses, and especially the manner in which you deliver those responses becomes the all important factor.
Perhaps you can sit down and talk about the For the Strength of Youth pamphlet with her. Ideally, this talk would mostly consist of her talking, not you. Ask her what she thinks it means when it references dating. Ask her why she thinks God feels it’s important. Always ask her before providing your own opinion and then listen to what she says. Most 14 year olds are not very good at lying, especially about abstract things. At the very least you’ll understand what she thinks is and isn’t appropriate. At best, she’ll come to understand and remember what really is appropriate. She clearly does have moral boundaries she doesn’t want to cross in this relationship so help her define them more clearly as well as move them closer to the Lord’s. And if it’s her decision to do so it will be infinitely more effective than the threat of losing privileges at home.
If you don't think you have that kind of relationship with your daughter then of course you have to do what you can to try to protect her. But be cognisent that the attitude you foster one her now will dictate how she acts in 3 years when she leaves your home.
posted
I'm not there yet either. And I don't really know what TO do, just what NOT to do.
The more a parent gets mad or freaks out, the harder the kid will go to hide information from that parent.
Right now, I'm locked in a battle with my own anger reflex. I can feel my influence with them slipping away every time I get mad and yell. Gotta win that.
Posts: 2127 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, lying comes naturally to her; being the oldest child taught her that very well.
So what should I do when she wants to go to the park or school alone with the guy? I don't want her to be alone with him, but she is really angry that we won't leave them alone. She says there are other people around, and I say they don't have my values and her best interests at heart, so they don't count.
She is also saying she isn't sure about the church. I'm hoping and praying that this trip to Nauvoo with the youth group will do alot. She has also had a falling out with her best friend (a girl from church) over the whole deal with this boy. My husband's family is really unhappy because the boy is African American (that doesn't bother me at all).
Please keep the advice coming!!
Posts: 35 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
She has broken your trust. That won't come back just because she wants it to. And she sounds like she wants to be able to be put in situations where she will just break your trust again and again--even if she says, "How can I regain it if you won't let me?" That is just asking for trouble. There are other ways to regain trust, but that is what you will have to decide. Her lying to you is not helping matters any.
I am willing to bet this hormone-charged boy is the big reason she is doubting the Church. I've seen it more times than I like to remember. And really, no boy is worth losing friends over. When the warmies aren't ruling her head, she just might realize it.
And the pictures. I can't count how many stories I've read of teenage girls who give the boyfriend--or potential boyfriend--pictures of this sort, and then when there's a fight or a break-up, they are out there for all the world to see. And if she says, "He's different; he wouldn't do that;" well, I imagine every girl who had that done to her thought that, too.
If he cared, he would respect her family, and your rules. And he would insist that she do the same.
posted
I've seen it often in teens, the feeling in a situations similar to this, even if not about boy/girlfriends, about the church. About not knowing how they feel about the gospel and all that. Of course they all have agency and so forth, but of those that I know of, most of the time it's not about the boyfriend or girlfriend etc, it's about the parents reaction. You may be the reason why they don't know how they feel about the gospel. Gospel is supposed to be about loving, especially loving parents. When a child feels she's not loved (I'm not saying she's not, but in a situation like this it's easy for a teenager to feel that way) by her parents, it causes them to question the whole gospel.
My advice is to listen. Now this is based on principles in counselling, not my own experiences. When she says she wants to go to the park alone with the guy, listen to understand what she wants and why she wants it. Don't just listen the words and then say what you want her to do. Listen to understand all of her feelings regarding this situation. Remember feelings are never wrong, so don't imply that her feelings are wrong. Listen, listen and listen. Let her correct you when you've misunderstood her. Listen what she wants from you. Don't imply that you really think she will choose the wrong given the chance. If you feel you don't know how to listen, the net is full of advice on active listening. It's really good. Your daughter needs to feel at this point that she is listened, taken seriously.
If your area have family service course on families, attend that. They have some good exercises on how to talk to a child and how to listen effectively, in tough situations.
Posts: 827 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not sure how useful my parenting advice will be. Cosette has turned out very well indeed, but I sincerely believe (by which I mean I am not indulging in false humility here) that I had very little to do with it. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say she turned out well in spite of my parenting, but close.
I also don't know how much of any of the observations I make will actually apply to your situation. I'm not an Ann Landers who can correctly "read" a situation based on a couple of paragraphs describing only one side of it. (For that matter, I'm not sure Ann Landers is an Ann Landers who who can correctly "read" a situation from a couple of paragraphs describing only one side of it, but that's a topic for a whole 'nother thread.)
Before I risk any advice, can I ask a few questions that might help me understand the dynamics here a bit better? You've no obligation to answer, but knowing the answers will improve any advice I give immeasurably.
(And, a disclaimer: I am not any kind of licensed family counselor, nor have I ever been a bishop. If you take advice from an anonymous Internet poster who goes under the name of a fictional French convict, you do it at your own risk.)
quote: Yeah, lying comes naturally to her; being the oldest child taught her that very well.
Can you say some more about this? Has she always had a dishonesty problem? How does it relate to her being the oldest child? (I haven't noticed that oldest children are more likely to be liars, but my experience is quite limited, and I apologize if I'm being naive here.) If this is not something new, how have you handled it in the past?
Incidentally, how many children do you have and what is their spread in ages? Do you work outside the home and, if so, what is your work schedule? Your husband's?
quote: She is also saying she isn't sure about the church.
How long has she been saying this? Has she elaborated on what she has doubts about? Does she want to be sure about the church? How have you handled this?
quote: My husband's family is really unhappy because the boy is African American (that doesn't bother me at all).
How does your husband feel about all this? For that matter, how is he handling the situation generally? How would you characterize his relationship with your daughter? Which of you is the primary disciplinarian (both for teaching and for punishing?)
quote: My husband and I would like to meet his parents, but I don't think it would do any good. I met his mom briefly before this happened and she definitely didn't even closely share the values we have. I get the feeling that he was only doing what he has learned from his family (cousins) and friends. We did text him a few times right after the picture incident and the kid didn't seem to understand that we will not allow her to date until 16, even after we told him several times. He would just apologize and then ask us again. He claims to "have never felt this way about another girl (um, your 14, of course you haven't!) and that he couldn't stand to wait that long.
It sounds like the boy and his parents may not be of much help. Still. Does the boy have any religious background? You mentioned his mother; tell me about the father. Are they married?
Not sure this is really going to matter, but you never know.
quote: She met a boy at school in 8th grade and they started up a relationship mostly behind our backs.
How did they meet? Under what circumstances were they seeing each other?
quote: On graduation night, she wanted to go to a local hangout with "friends" which I later found out included him.
How did you learn this? What exactly did you learn and how did you handle it?
quote: Then I caught her that night sending him a pic (that he relentlessly pressured her into sending) of her in just her bra and panties.
Did you actually catch her in bra and panties making the pic? Did you run across the pic on Facebook? How did you handle this, aside from taking the phone away at once?
When did she first get the phone? What conditions, if any, did you put on her use of it when you let her have it? Who is paying for it?
quote: We took her phone away, facebook, and every other freedom we could.
So she's thoroughly grounded. Can you describe this a bit more? What precisely are her limitations? How are they enforced?
quote: A part of me just wants to let her go and do whatever, but a much bigger part of me knows that's wrong.
I think I understand (all too well), but can you describe for me in a bit more detail what you think the nature of the wrong would be? I want to understand how you understand what your duty as a parent is here.
quote: I made her talk to our branch pres after the picture thing, and she's leaving for a Nauvoo youth trip in 2 days.
Short deadline. Wish there was time to explore this more before offering any advice. My gut feeling is that the Nauvoo trip would be a mistake at this point, but go with your own gut feeling; you're closer to the situation.
quote: I want to maintain the open, strong relationship we have always shared.
Can you say a little more about this? When you say "open", do you mean that you are both candid and truthful with each other? You hinted at a history of lying elsewhere in this thread; how does this square with the idea that her relationship with you is open? In what sense is it strong? Do you mean that there are strong feelings involved, or that there has previously been great trust, or something else?
quote: She says there are other people around, and I say they don't have my values and her best interests at heart, so they don't count.
Well, at least she pays lip service to the "safety in numbers" concept, which may be a starting place. (Possibly.) Who are the other people? You mention a branch president; do you live in a rural area or small town, or in a larger city with a relatively small Mormon population? Are you in the United States or a foreign country? If in the U.S., what region?
And an aside, since this isn't actually your comment nor particularly germane: "Most 14 year olds are not very good at lying, especially about abstract things." Most people of any age aren't that good at lying. Unfortunately, there are a few people who are very good indeed at lying, and this can certainly start as early as 14. I have known one or two.
We know most people are basically truthful, so we trust most people ... and then the rare exception who is superb at lying comes along and cons us out of our life's savings. Places like Utah seem to attract such people. Like I said, a complete aside.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Most parents are aware of the no dating till 16 rule. However, the YMP, who I car pool with, pointed out, a careful reading of the For the Strength of Youth booklet says group dating starting at 16. Single dating doesn't start till 18.
It is a very normal thing for people to want to be liked. Talk to your daughter about how this boy is not displaying a true affection for her as a person. Help her to understand that she's behaving as she does because she wants to be liked. And that as painful as it might be, does she really want to change her core values to be liked by him, or does she want a boy that respects her core values and loves her.
Right now the boy is wanting (liking) what he thinks he can have (sex). And any language that he uses to convince her to give him what he wants, is disrespectful of her as a person.
Right now she needs self-esteem and love.
Posts: 10880 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have a son and two daughters (ages 24, 22, 20). 14 year olds do not have very good judgment, no matter what other sterling qualities they may possess. While having a sleep-over at a female friend’s house (three girls total), one of the girls managed to persuade the other two to join her in a quick dash around the backyard in their birthday suits. Thankfully, cell phones were not yet as ubiquitous then as they are now and no pictures were taken, but of course the wife and I were asking, “What were you thinking?” She turned out fine, so one mistake doesn’t necessarily portend a future disaster. (Not saying that the problem can be ignored.)
The brightest glimmer of hope I see in the OP’s situation is that her daughter refused to pose nude. Ask her, “Why?” Something in her spirit recognized not to go there. Work with that. Build on it.
Posts: 313 | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote: Most parents are aware of the no dating till 16 rule
When our 14-year-old son (our eldest child) went on a date, we suddenly realized that after years of telling our children not to date until they were 16 we had neglected to define what the word "date" means. Our son wasn't gaming the system. A girl invited him to go with her to a school dance, and at 14 he had already been to stake dances. It is a bit tricky to define what is and what is not a date, but it needs to be spelled out between the parents and the children so that all have the same picture in mind.
Posts: 313 | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
quote: She says there are other people around, and I say they don't have my values and her best interests at heart, so they don't count.
When she gets you into such an argument, you have already lost. MO is that you should refrain the discussion away from the specific things she wants to do and you say no, to how she can earn your trust back. Discussion. If she refuses to stop arguing, you stop. Tell her that that discussion is over and then let it be over. Power struggles are a loss-loss.
Off topic
quote: However, the YMP, who I car pool with, pointed out, a careful reading of the For the Strength of Youth booklet says group dating starting at 16. Single dating doesn't start till 18.
How times change. When I was a youth, at 14 you could group date and 16 single date. Now, I understand that the youth don't want to stop group dating at 18 and continue it well into the attendance at BYU. (Is that a problem at other schools?)
Posts: 5056 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
-She hasn't really had a dishonesty problem, it's just that being the oldest child and having to help me parent so much (my husband has to go out of town every 4 days for work and is gone for 4 days) she has learned that certain things have to be 'sugarcoated' for the younger kids. I'm ashamed to say she has learned it mostly from me. I can usually tell when she's lying (unlike most people) but she is getting good at it.
-I have 4 daughters in all: her, an 11 yr old,a 7 yr old and a 6 yr old. I have mostly stayed home with them, but have worked on and off this last year. I know own my own business and need their help from when they are home.
- She has said this about her faith in the church on and off for a couple of years. Other times she confirms her testimony. I know she says it out of anger alot, and I have read her messages to this boy saying how can the church be true when we are so mean, etc. She is really struggling with the "rules" we and the church place on her. I usually just tell her she needs to pray and read the scriptures if she is really needing an answer. I'm not sure if she has ever done that or not.
-My husband is fine with his race as well. But his mom and sister are . . . old fashioned. He wants to just completely cut her off and he and I are sometimes at odds as to how to handle things.
-All I know is he has a step father and he lives with him and his mother. I believe his father is in the area.
-They met at school in keyboarding/health class. It was a high school level course.
-I found out what was going on when her sister suspected she was doing something wrong that evening and told me she saw her taking pics in the mirror of herself in just her underclothes. I went to investigate and caught her putting her clothes back on in her bathroom. Her phone was on the counter and I picked it up and started reading it. I immediately took her phone away and told her she is in big trouble but we would talk about it the next day. It was already very late and my husband and I were already in bed. Plus I was too upset to even look at her and I knew I needed to calm down. In reading all of the messages, I saw that he told her he would break up with her, said she didn't love him if she didn't do it, etc. He really pressured her and she fought him for a while, which I did praise her for that, and I told her I'm forever grateful she wasn't naked.
-She's no longer grounded, but I had taken her phone away, changed her facebook password, and didn't let her hang out with any friends. I have now given her the phone and facebook back, but her phone has spyware on it and parental blocks from the carrier. I also have her fb messenger on my phone so I can see whenever she is messaging on there. I also monitor her apps to make sure she doesn't use some program to bypass the spyware. She is no longer allowed to password-protect anything, either.
-I disagree with calling off the Nauvoo trip. The trip places her in a setting with other people that have our values. It will be a wonderful spiritual experience and I'm hoping that she will come home with a stronger testimony. I'm also blocking her phone from him and all her friends so that she can't text the whole time.
***
quote: I want to maintain the open, strong relationship we have always shared.
Can you say a little more about this? When you say "open", do you mean that you are both candid and truthful with each other? You hinted at a history of lying elsewhere in this thread; how does this square with the idea that her relationship with you is open? In what sense is it strong? Do you mean that there are strong feelings involved, or that there has previously been great trust, or something else?
-We have always been able to talk about things. I have always trusted her to make good choices.
*** quote: She says there are other people around, and I say they don't have my values and her best interests at heart, so they don't count.
Well, at least she pays lip service to the "safety in numbers" concept, which may be a starting place. (Possibly.) Who are the other people? You mention a branch president; do you live in a rural area or small town, or in a larger city with a relatively small Mormon population? Are you in the United States or a foreign country? If in the U.S., what region?
-She's talking about other students or a few coaches around the school when she and him are there. They are supposed to be holding open practices but they aren't really organized or supervised. Basically the school is just open for the kids to do whatever they want. We live in a medium-sized town with a small branch.
Posts: 35 | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Roper did a superb job of laying out what your daughter needs to be brought to understand. I'd just add that, after boasting to his friends about having sexual intercourse with your daughter, he's going to go looking for new worlds to conquer, leaving her brokenhearted and, quite possibly, pregnant.
So I think we all know what the message needs to be. Now let's talk about how to get her to understand it.
She is 14, Her judgment is poor. Her infatuation with this boy is real and present. The danger of being left alone and pregnant is abstract and in the future. It's not going to be straightforward to get the message across.
But from your answers to my previous questions, I think I'm getting a better picture here. Just a few more questions.
quote:-She hasn't really had a dishonesty problem, it's just that being the oldest child and having to help me parent so much (my husband has to go out of town every 4 days for work and is gone for 4 days) she has learned that certain things have to be 'sugarcoated' for the younger kids. I'm ashamed to say she has learned it mostly from me.
It's probably true that there is information young children don't need and aren't ready to handle. But this raises a bit of a red flag for me. Can you tell me more about what kinds of things you have "sugarcoated" for your children, and to what extent, if any, your daughter has gone beyond your example in her own dealings with your younger children?
You also mentioned earlier that she is aware you had a boyfriend at an young age, and I understand your concern that she may be taking this as license to do the same. How extensive is her awareness? In what context did she learn about it?
I'm trying to establish to what extent she is willing to take a trivial moral violation on your part as license to commit a serious moral violation herself.
quote: I can usually tell when she's lying (unlike most people) but she is getting good at it.
It worries me, as it clearly does you, that she is on the way to becoming an accomplished liar. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, most people aren't that good at lying. If she starts to perceive that her "talent" for lying is a valuable skill, she's going to get into a vicious cycle that will leave you both in a world of hurt.
Is it possible that dishonesty is the real heart of the problem here? It certainly doesn't help that it is garnished with immodesty tending towards unchastity, but it's possible that you may to need to focus on the dishonesty if you're going to get anywhere with the immodesty. I realize this may be difficult when it's the immodesty and threat of unchastity that is most obviously alarming.
quote:I have 4 daughters in all: her, an 11 yr old,a 7 yr old and a 6 yr old. I have mostly stayed home with them, but have worked on and off this last year. I know own my own business and need their help from when they are home.
So the picture I have is that your husband is on travel for work about half the time, and you have worked part time until recently, when you began your own business in your home in which your children sometimes help? Not sure how relevant it is; your choice whether to answer.
quote: - She has said this about her faith in the church on and off for a couple of years. Other times she confirms her testimony. I know she says it out of anger alot, and I have read her messages to this boy saying how can the church be true when we are so mean, etc.
We both know that is a glaring non sequitur. The Church is not here to stroke our self-esteem, but to reconcile us to God's will. And God does not will her to lie or be unchaste.
At some point the Church will play a very important role in bringing her around. I'm not terribly comfortable judging when or how that will happen, since it's outside my priesthood stewardship. However, I am fairly comfortable suggesting that the threat of hellfire and damnation is even more abstract and in the future than the danger of being left alone and pregnant, so that approach is unlikely to be fruitful.
You mentioned that you insisted she go see the branch president. Are you comfortable going to your branch president yourself, for confidential advice and perhaps a blessing of comfort and counsel? At this point, it may be more productive for you and your branch president to counsel together than to try to compel your daughter to see the branch president. A lot depends on your branch president, and I don't know the fellow.
quote: She is really struggling with the "rules" we and the church place on her. I usually just tell her she needs to pray and read the scriptures if she is really needing an answer. I'm not sure if she has ever done that or not.
Does she see you reading scripture and praying? I do so daily, and yet I was surprised to learn recently how unaware Cosette was of it. Now, I'm not suggesting you march into her room, park yourself on her bed, and start loudly reading scripture aloud and ostentatiously taking notes. Kids that age have an amazingly sensitive B.S.-O-Meter. But have you ever invited her to pray with you? If so, how did it go?
quote: -My husband is fine with his race as well. But his mom and sister are . . . old fashioned. He wants to just completely cut her off and he and I are sometimes at odds as to how to handle things.
It's not unusual for the father to be a bit more distant from his children, and yet to be the primary discipline provider. In fact, loving discipline is arguably part of a father's special divine role.
However, you've told me he is on travel about half the time. Does he also work the days he is home? How is his relationship with her?
It is certainly not the case that daughters who are not close to their fathers will all become unchaste, but an alarming percentage of girls who become unchaste lack a close relationship with their fathers. I mention this not to blame your husband for this, but as a reminder that it's important he be involved in working through it. Perhaps he could join your branch president in giving you a blessing of comfort and counsel?
quote: -All I know is he has a step father and he lives with him and his mother. I believe his father is in the area.
I wouldn't expect any help from the boy's family. Though no one's suggested it, I'll preempt this now: Your daughter should not be used as live bait to try to lure the boy or his family closer to God.
quote: -They met at school in keyboarding/health class. It was a high school level course.
-I found out what was going on when her sister suspected she was doing something wrong that evening and told me she saw her taking pics in the mirror of herself in just her underclothes. I went to investigate and caught her putting her clothes back on in her bathroom. Her phone was on the counter and I picked it up and started reading it.
Okay, it sounds like you had pretty ample justification to inspect her phone log. I'd probably have done the same.
quote: I immediately took her phone away and told her she is in big trouble but we would talk about it the next day. It was already very late and my husband and I were already in bed. Plus I was too upset to even look at her and I knew I needed to calm down.
Probably a good call. It is very difficult to maintain the loving spirit needed for effective discipline when your blood pressure is in triple digits. It's very important that you follow through, though, as quickly as possible.
quote: In reading all of the messages, I saw that he told her he would break up with her, said she didn't love him if she didn't do it, etc. He really pressured her and she fought him for a while, which I did praise her for that, and I told her I'm forever grateful she wasn't naked.
Putting it rather bluntly, and with apologies in advance to EDG: We are called to holiness, but this boy is engaging in assholiness.
Don't try using that line with your daughter. I'm just venting here.
quote: -She's no longer grounded, but I had taken her phone away, changed her facebook password, and didn't let her hang out with any friends. I have now given her the phone and facebook back, but her phone has spyware on it and parental blocks from the carrier. I also have her fb messenger on my phone so I can see whenever she is messaging on there. I also monitor her apps to make sure she doesn't use some program to bypass the spyware. She is no longer allowed to password-protect anything, either.
I could quibble with details of how you handled this, but it doesn't necessarily sound unreasonable. An awful lot depends on the spirit in which it was done.
quote: -We have always been able to talk about things. I have always trusted her to make good choices.
I think this is the right starting place. I would suggest the goal now is to find a way to have her trust you enough to pay attention to the message Roper laid out so well.
I'd start by being absolutely scrupulous about avoiding any kind of moral indiscretions, even trivial ones, on your own part. For example, find alternative to "sugarcoating" things. There are kind ways to tell people they aren't entitled to certain information, thus avoiding the need to give them false information, but it is a skill that benefits from practice and rehearsal. You need to show your daughter she can trust you to be completely honest.
Likewise -- and I emphasize that you haven't given me any reason to think you are doing any of these things; it's a general warning I'd given anyone in your position -- if you have any tendency to flirt with members of the opposite sex, however harmlessly, stop now. If you are fond of romance novels, or women's magazines (print or online), or of wearing slightly revealing clothing, now would be a good time to stop. You haven't mentioned whether you're endowed, but wear clothing compatible with the temple garment regardless. At the same time, let her see positive affectionate interactions between you and your husband. The message we want to communicate to your daughter is not that sex is dirty, but that it is holy and pulling it out of its proper context within marriage is sacrilege.
The point here is to let her see that you are sincerely determined to practice what you preach.
The next step is to let her see that your motivation is genuine love and alarmed concern for her well-being. That is, she needs to see that you are genuinely alarmed for her safety, emotional, physical, and spiritual (and probably in that order.) Children lack judgment and have a hard time "getting" abstract threats. Nature compensates by making them fairly sensitive to danger cues from their parents. This sensitivity to parental danger cues has not entirely worn off at age 14.
Avoid giving her the message that your motivation is fear that she will embarrass you. Most teenagers are embarrassed of their parents, and eager to return the favor.
Very best of luck. Will pray for you.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I didn't read any but OP. 1--- How old is the boy? Sometimes you can scare the young man away (he already solicited child porn and engagement in a sexual performance) by meeting with the parents and asking them to make it clear to their son that he is not to contact in any way your child until he has your permission which will not be at all until she is 16 and thereafter only with supervision. Give them copies of the laws that he has violated (if he has) and tell them that if there is a next time, you'll be seeking help from the police on the matter.
2--- Find out what is prompting your daughter to act out like this. Get her in therapy. Help her understand better who she is. Consider sending her to Anasazi Foundation if she is chronically acting out. 3-- Rule out substance abuse and sexual abuse (and I'm talking about the tests you can do online). It is so very common for our daughters to have a bad experience, believe themselves to be thereafter so bad that nothing else matters. Sometimes these things happen when under the influence or involving force. And it can be something that astounds you completely that she understands so little about the gospel that she sees herself permanently unworthy because of it. Maybe one of the consequences you can levy is that she has to stay within fifty feet of DAD (if his work would accommodate that, of course) for a while: Dad's matter in this. While you should not take her word for it, you should consider your inspiration.
3-- She might hate you. She may even defy you and sneak out (you might put bells on her door and windows that ring in your room. Or strip her room of everything but a sheet and a blanket and the clothes she is wearing, and require that she earn the rest of her life back (usually reserved for really dangerous behavior, and with support knowledge of her therapist). Frequently go to wherever she says she's going to be. Call whomever she says she'll be with. Enroll her in a different school (although sometimes the going to the same school actually cuts down on the defiance precisely because they get to see each other sometimes). But at least she will know that you loved her enough to help her to the full extent you knew how to do.
4--- Give her lots of freedom in other areas. Look for what she does that is good and right. Read with spouse "Bonds that make you free" by C. Terry Warner. Even consider inviting the boy regularly to your FHE or to sit with you in church.
5--- Help her find out what she is good at and help her become competent at more things.
Posts: 2183 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why do we assume the boy is throroughly bad? I understand the need for protection to a certain level, but I don't like the idea that the boy is a villain who just simply needs to be cut off.
In today's world there are great many kids who just do what everybody else does because they've gotten the impression that's what everyone else does. I've heard very many cases where a boy "pressures" or even commands the girl to do things he's not prepared for and is very grateful when she refuses. He doesn't lose his face in front of his friends because he can say that the girl refused and it's all her fault. But in reality he doesn't want to do anything either. Like many kids are grateful to be able to use strict parents as an excuse for not doing things they themselves don't want to do. And I'm not talking about lds youth here but regular "let's drink our heads off this weekend" youth. I've had some very good discussions with a neighbour who is a police officer and often works with youth.
In general most kids are good kids and most would be terrific if someone just told them that they don't need to do everything they think they should. As much as what he's doing is wrong, I don't like the idea that he is "wrong" or terminally bad.
Posts: 827 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'll be frank. As a father of 3 daughters, 1 son, and another baby (we are finding out the gender in 1 hour), I would do the following: I would go talk to the boy's parents, telling them the situation, and I would tell them I will get a restraining order if the boy contacts my daughter again. If the boy contacted my daughter, I would get a restraining order. If he contacted her again, I would report it.
That behavior is not only inappropriate, it is dangerous.
quote: Why do we assume the boy is throroughly bad? I understand the need for protection to a certain level, but I don't like the idea that the boy is a villain who just simply needs to be cut off.
Roper covered it. I'll add this slight qualifier: I do not know the boy and I don't know how bad he is, or even how I would go about judging how bad he is. But his behavior toward the girl is thoroughly rotten.
Can God still work with the boy? If He could send Ammon to convert Lamoni and his people, then, yes, it's quite possible he can still work with this boy. But Ammon was not a 14-year-old girl, he didn't agree to marry Lamoni's daughter, and, as I said earlier, using this 14-year-old as live bait to try to lure the boy back to God is a real bad idea -- for both of them.
It's not just the 14-year-old girl who is being done a favor by coming down on this situation, hard.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:How times change. When I was a youth, at 14 you could group date and 16 single date.
I'm not sure how old you are. I'm 44. When I got the call for my first date at 16 my parents then told me that it was group dating at 16 and single at 18. They said President Kimball had said it. I'd never heard of it before, but I don't know if that was because it wasn't commonly talked about or if I was just unobservant. I can't find it in a quick search, but most of the quotes I see from him on dating are in the early 70s.
I'm glad it is more talked about today. I was kind of embarrassed to call my date back and let him know I needed to double date. He didn't seem to have any problem though and I will always be grateful.
Posts: 4963 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
Pre-President Kimball being ordained prophet. There is always large differences in the interpretation of the guidelines given out by the brethren and perhaps my understanding at the time was misguided.
Posts: 5056 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
To clarify, my understanding of a group date was where a group of kids do something together - not paired. I was curious about the 16 years old only group dating and 18 years old for single dating standard, so I did a search. What I found were many statements that said don't date until you are 16, then start with group or double dates. Further searches defined a group date as groups of paired individuals. I could find nothing about only group dates at 16 and then individual dates at 18. Is it spelled out in the current standards booklet for the youth? But perhaps this should be a different thread - so I am putting this post in a new thread.
posted
I have a few things to say about the picture. This was an extremely stupid thing to do.
There is an almost certain probability that this relationship will fail. Even for those of us more mature and with more experience, every romantic relationship we have ever had, except maybe one, has failed. When it does, this picture could be used for revenge. If you want to be horrified, google "ex girlfriend revenge". This could be you. In any case, this picture can now be used to blackmail you. If he wants to kiss you and you refuse, he could threaten to spread the picture around, or publish it. And I'm sure he can think up more creative ways to blackmail you.
There is a high probability that picture will find its way onto the internet. If it does, it is permanent. Even if it is deleted from every site you know of, there are still archive sites that may have it. Years in the future, anyone who has a reason to discredit you may find it and use it for blackmail or leverage. It could hurt your chances of being elected to a public office, win a financial dispute lawsuit, or get custody of children, for example.
This picture will be an embarrassment forever. you will have to explain it to your fiance before you are married. If you don't, and he finds out about it from another source, it will be worse.
Posts: 464 | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would have absolutely no problem kicking this boy out of my daughter's life. I would not care at all if she held it against me.
She is not your peer. You mention that she helps a lot when your husband is gone. I know that you probably need that help. But you need to make sure there is complete clarity about your roles.
I would not only tell her she is done seeing this boy, I would tell the boy and his parents. Soliciting kiddie porn is actually a crime. I would make it abundantly clear that your daughter is just way too much trouble to mess with.
Posts: 7955 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote: Why do we assume the boy is throroughly bad? I understand the need for protection to a certain level, but I don't like the idea that the boy is a villain who just simply needs to be cut off.
I don't assume he's thoroughly bad. In fact I don't care one wit if he is good or bad. It is actually immaterial. The situation is bad. The situation has deteriorated to the point that safe boundaries have been crossed.
If a boy was driving my daughter over a cliff, my last concern would be whether the boy was good or bad. My sole focus would be getting my kid out of the situation.
Posts: 7955 | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
We're still waiting for a son-in-law to grow up in a lot of ways, and he is 32! Seriously: this can be a fun discussion with girls. Pointing out the immaturity of boys. ![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
but that's a topic for a whole 'nother thread.)![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Kids that age have an amazingly sensitive B.S.-O-Meter. But have you ever invited her to pray with you? If so, how did it go? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Clap]](graemlins/clap.gif)
Agree with EDG on this one.
