posted
Great article. I have a similar feeling about elaborate weddings. More emphasis placed on the wedding day than the actual marriage.
Posts: 411 | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
I agree with most of the article. I cannot recall the last time I attended an open house for a departing missionary, it's been that long.
On the other hand, I am greatly looking forward to the open house for a friend's daughter who was just honorably released from her mission. It will not interfere with Church meetings and, knowing this family, it will be nice but not wretchedly excessive. And it will take place after she has actually gone out and done something worthy of recognition.
Still:
quote: If, after paying for his clothes and luggage and setting aside the funds for his mission, you still have enough cash to put on a banquet, then bake a few dozen cookies instead, and give the bishop the rest of the money you would have spent on the party -- clearly you have a surplus.
Seems like a judgment one ought not to make. I think there may be a place in the Church for feasts of charity. Better to improve one's understanding of what that place is, than to toss them entirely.
Posts: 2017 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I enjoyed the article that highlighted some of the excesses in which we as LDS people indulge. You failed to mention one of the grossest excesses of all: what we have done to Young Women’s Camp. As other church programs have notably simplified, camp has only gotten bigger and flashier. With all of the custom printed shirts, gourmet menus, skits, activities, and ward-to-ward competitions, little time is left for actual camping. Besides, all of the unsavory “camp”-related certifications out of the way before camp.
This excess also serves to highlight in a very direct way, the competition that exists between wards (and individuals). Not to be outdone, each ward plans more outlandish and fun activities than the year before. If we agree that sameness breeds competition, then it is this sameness that drives us as LDS women to outdo each other with not only camp, but also many other church activities and personal endeavors such as blogs.
Now, I’m am not some old codger who thinks that camp has departed from the “good old days”. I am a 37-year-old mother who is terrified of being called to Camp Director and being scoffed at because I believe this program must be simplified.
posted
It is so funny that Bro Card brings up the bunko playing because my ward has a group of sisters that get together and play. I've never been invited to join them, I wouldn't if asked anyway. And I don't know if they play for money. My biggest pet peeve, aside from the gambling, is that they hold it on the same night as Enrichment (the once every quarter meeting), so therefore none of them show up to support Enrichment. In a small RS, taking 12 sisters away to play a game is a big deal. Would it be too much to ask that once every quarter they set aside their "game" and join the other sisters in fellowshipping?
Posts: 424 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Take that bunko fiends. I am so sick of hearing about that dumb game from sisters in RS. The last time I got invited I said I only play strip poker. So sick of that game, the dumb t-shirts, and all the attendant garbage that goes with it.
Posts: 7932 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
It's very interesting how different challenges emerge as the church becomes stronger. Here in Guatemala; the biggest problem is apathy. I wish baptismal service could be a bit more elaborate, a printed agenda at least.
I have lived in different in the States and have felt the excesses in some wards. If you don't have a family, one feels awkward and left out.
I hope that we continue to focus on the things that matter most, rather than on trivialities.
Posts: 4 | Registered: May 2009
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You are worried about bunko parties, baptisms, and "receptions" that are too big, and competitive?
What about all the Mormons in Draper, South Jordan, and Bountiful who compete to have the biggest house, closest to the temple, and the most expensive car?
And what about those who compete to take the biggest camp trailer and the latest ATV's on the one-night ward campout or Aaronic Priestood commemoration outing (or whatever they're calling "fathers and sons" this year)?
The Lord needs to start His housecleaning, soon, and with his own house.
Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
For my 30 years I have been happily ignorant that syllables could be put together and form an actual word called "bunko". I'm going to try and immerse myself in something else so that I can remain that way.
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
What's worse: the rich, or those who resent the rich? And then there are those wonderful people who just don't care. I'd like to be one of those people. There will always be the affluent among us. (Well, at least until the millenium.) There will also always be those who will compete for adoration until their dying day. What we need more of people who are brave enough to say "no" to the excess.
Posts: 4 | Registered: May 2009
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Both the covetous rich and the covetous poor are in violation of the commandment. A splendid equality.
Posts: 2017 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Almost anything worthwhile can be taken to excess. Take paintballing (although we could debate whether or not it's worthwhile, it seems to have found its spot in Mormon culture). In our ward the young men scheduled paintball for Saturday morning of General Conference.
Regarding missionary farewells: We once had a regular Nauvoodle, a convert, whose first Sacrament Meeting as an investigator was a missionary farewell. She had no idea that it was a missionary farewell, or even what a missionary farewell was. But everybody was talking about a young man named Kevin in such glowing terms that she could only conclude that Kevin had died and that this was his memorial service. Imagine her surprise when Kevin got up to speak.
I was in Ward Council when a letter from the First Presidency was read regarding the discontinuation of missionary farewells and homecomings. My bishop noted that his sister-in-law's ward in SLC had 25 missionaries in the fieldat that time. A little quick math will show that farewells and homecomings for 25 missionaries would take up over half the sacrament meetings in a two year period. With the other half being taken up by fast and testimony meetings and high council sundays, there would be no meetings left for ordinary members to speak on such esoteric subjects as faith and repentence. That assumes of course that the missionary departures and returns are spread out evenly through the year. Most likely they're not. I can't begin to imagine the cat fights that must have ensued when two, three, or more mothers argued over whose missionary son or daughter got priority on a given Sunday.
I have to admit though, I've never heard of a funny fruit or happy fruit jar. I may have to try that at home.
Posts: 5982 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
On the other hand Bro Card. We do occasionally go to the other extreme. Eagle Courts are so common in Utah that they often get little attention or attendance outside of the Family and current scouts. In Utah Eagle Scouts are a dime a dozen. I recall the time on my mission when my comp and I tracted into a den mother who had just released her cubs from the day's meeting. She wasn't interested in our message but was amazed to have not one but two Eagle Scouts on her porch. She invited us to speak (about scouting) to her church's troop. I was transferred soon after and don't know if that happened.
Whereas in other parts of the country, an Eagle is seen as such a notable accomplishment that civic leaders will attend and there will be great celebration and feasting and so on. An Eagle Scout earns a new enlistee a higher starting rank.
I think part of the issue at least with the initial example OSC gave was how common are Baptisms in his neck of the woods. Here in Utah where usually only the stake center has a font, a baptism session is usually held once a month and with your now common 11 or 12 wards in a stake you are looking at 20 to 30 kids needing to get dunked, so the stake will coordinate one combined pre baptism talk, then play a video or three while each ward takes it's turn in the font before moving to another room for the HG talk and confirmation. No time or place for refreshments or other party like activities.
If the parents do want to hold an open house they will be competeing with the other baptisee's from the ward so it will most likely just consist of the extended family and family friends.
Posts: 2912 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote: If you have to launder money in order to pay tithing on it, you really need to turn in your temple recommend until you get this problem under control.
posted
Thank you, Scott for pointing this out. We certainly can be a "peculiar people", but this type of peculiarity is not welcome. I've always felt if we all just stick to the basics we'd all be a lot happier!
Posts: 1 | Registered: May 2009
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Pop culture, see it all, competition, and the lengths people go to to "not miss out!"
It's popular, we gotta do it! Everyone is doing it, all the Bunko players, UtahBrides-dot-spend yourself into the poorhouse so your neighbors know your a.w.e.s.o.m.e! Bigger houses, better vacations, more boats.
posted
It looks like I may be one of the few who disagree with this particular article. I happen to think that Bunko is great. I was (and still am) in a group that played Bunkoo for years. We now just go out to dinner every month. We used to put in $5 a month and had about 5 prizes for 12 people. If that's gambling, then I don't think there is anything wrong with it. It brought us together, strengthened our friendships and served as a much needed 'therapy' night for all involved. These women are some of my closest friends now who have helped me through some very trying times. If Bunko is gambling then what is a golf tournament with prizes?
Posts: 1 | Registered: May 2009
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posted
If the game your playing is this one Bunko, then it is a game of chance. Golf is a game of skill that with practice can be improved.
The key is the word "chance." If they key deciding factor of them game is not in the players control, then it is a game of chance.
And while it may be true that the game brings people together and people bond during the game. The cause for gathering could have been replaced with something that did not require the participants to pay money to participate.
How the money is handed out is irrelevant. Cash or prizes are effectively the same thing.
Posts: 10865 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
This is a such a timely topic and I think OSC hit the nail on the head. About a year ago we had Bunko night for enrichment. I think I was the only one who was even remotely uncomfortable. No money was involved of course but it was kind of like serving virgin versions of mixed drinks at a church function. It somehow seems just a little off.
Posts: 1 | Registered: May 2009
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quote:If that's gambling, then I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
Hmmm. If drinking only one beer is breaking the Word of Wisdom, then I don't think there is anything wrong with it.
Posts: 5982 | Registered: Feb 2000
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First, there's money involved in bunko? Wow, I learned from the wrong people, then. We just played for points. I don't know one LDS person who plays bunko, and have belonged to wards that have, thankfully, not been afflicted with this condition.
Second, I remember stories of my mother's missionary farewell back in the ... a while ago. They had the big party after Sacrament Meeting, but they also had a money tree, and every now and then, someone announced how much money had been donated to the missionary! Yikes. So glad that one is gone. Or is it?
[QUOTE] Those old farewells were so ridiculous: heaping adulation on a young man who, after all, hadn't done anything yet. What we need is for the missionary to show us that he's a competent teacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ/QUOTE]
I always agreed with this one, so I turned cartwheels when President Hinckley changed the policy.
Third, people act that way for a baptism? Beyond simple programs and cookies? Slide shows? They're only eight! It boggles the mind.
I guess I have been sheltered in my own little way from such displays, and I am grateful.
Posts: 3862 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
OSC missed my pet peeve cultural whoop-te-do. I intensely dislike the tradition of having a party after a baby blessing. It's exactly like the party after a missionary farewell, except the guest of honor usually takes a nap. And the mother of the guest of honor is a hormonal wreck. Since the guest of honor is too little to stay all three hours, this party involves skipping the rest of church too. The massive disadvantage of the descendants of two pioneer families getting married is that immediate family consists of over 40 people, and that's without inviting any aunts and uncles (I offended a lot of aunts and uncles by not inviting them).
I wish we'd just get rid of baby blessings altogether. They're not a saving ordinance.
The bunko group in our ward doesn't play for money, and they don't meet on Enrichment nights.
Posts: 4767 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Never heard of bunko. I'll stick with Pinochle. We play it once a month. Our group consists of 2 Mormons (wife & me), 4 Jews, 4 Catholics, one agnostic, and 1 Jew who converted to Protestantism (but his daughter is LDS). Posts: 3371 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: I wish we'd just get rid of baby blessings altogether. They're not a saving ordinance.
No, but they are commanded. D&C 20:70
It's generally considered a father's privilege, provided that he is one of the elders, of course. However, I've seen circles that include the whole bishopric, quorum presidents, home teachers, both grandparents, and assorted brothers, uncles, and cousins, with 20+ people involved. That's overdoing it, I think.
posted
What? No baby blessing? THat's just heartless. There's nothing sweeter than a new daddy blessing his daughter or son with a temple marriage. Hope springs eternal.
posted
There is an unwritten rule that if family is visiting that they don't have to stay for all the services. I think this is a matter of convenience for the innactive relatives who would go home after a sacrament meeting, for example, once they heard the farewell, or so forth. Often with a farewell you'd get friends visiting too from other wards. And rather than just let people stick around in your house while you're at church people feel obligated to host the guests that come to the house.
Also I think the celebrations for things like baptisms are understandable, in that you often have people that owuldn't normally set foot in your church (we always invited the kid's elementary schoo teachers, for example) and it was nice to get to talk with them, with the missionaries there, and such after the baptism for a bit.
Cookies makes the talking easier.
And we all know the road to hell is paved with cookies.
Anyhow Good article. The Bunko stuff made me laugh... I had never put together the "bunko squad" thing... but I've always seen the game as gambling. And my wife and I have always politely declined the temptation to play such games... we prefer more civilized games... like hand and foot, and descending rook, and maybe a little pinnochle. I do think it's nice to get to know members of your ward by having a game night.
Though clearly all things can be taken to excess... and are... especially in Mormonia...
posted
Card seems to be accusing the LDS community of becoming like Babylon and cites missionary farewells and Bunko (a game I've never heard of before) as examples of this supposed 'cultural shift.'
Instead, these examples are merely trite commentaries that probably popped into his head when he heard the local gossip last week after church.
Rather than being horrified at our excess, the pioneers might have been envious and resentful they were called to pass through abject poverty and hardship if they saw our prosperous society. We just can't claim to know what their reaction to our lifestyle would be with any degree of certainty. His portrayal of hypothetical horror on behalf of the pioneers is, frankly, without merit.
I do see faults in LDS culture, but I see it on the other end of the spectrum.
We tend to focus too much on the "Gospel" following the death of a loved one. Sure, the Plan of Salvation gives some private comfort. But it is only comforting in the quiet seclusion of our personal prayers and soul-searching as we cope with the great spiritual questions that flow into our minds when such a huge blow is landed against us.
When someone preaches to me that that "church is true" during that time of sorrow it cheapens the comfort the gospel can bring during that time.
We should instead remember the example of Jesus Christ, who cried with a family that lost a loved one! He could have taught them about the Plan of Salvation. He could have read scripture to them or He could have born amazing testimony. He didn't. He wept! Too often we will try to comfort a family member by reminding them the "church is true" and forget to cry with them and tell them we are sorry and we love them. A funeral should be centered around the deceased person and an outpouring of love for the family, not the Plan of Salvation. Leave that for each family member to discover for themselves, in their most sacred and private settings. Sometimes we, as members, preach too much and love too little.
We should cry at a funeral. We should laugh, too, and smile, and remember, and tell stories. It's not testimony meeting. We don't have to preach the King Follet discourse at every funeral!
The same goes for a missionary's farewell party. Every missionary knows the maxim that says that your investigators will only care how much you know when they know how much you care about them.
Showing how much you care for the departing missionary as an individual ought to extend beyond a single get-together, but that opportunity to show how much you care about him or her is a thousand times more important than a classroom discussion on Charity.
As a missionary I took to heart letters of advice by those who had shown they cared about me. I discarded letters from "faithful" members who, though I knew they were "good" members, were writing "the missionary in the ward" rather than writing ME.
Mothers of missionaries do get off track a little when they make displays for their son or daughter. The missionary doesn't care about that. They do care when people get away from the punch and cookies and talk to them.
And rather than being too ostentatious, LDS weddings tend to be too informal and casual--especially the actual wedding ceremony. Frankly, it's disgusting when a temple sealer offers unwanted advice or cracks jokes at the groom's expense or chides both parties for one thing or another. It's just not his place to do anything except officiate in the ceremony, which should be as un-casual as possible.
A priest does not crack a joke in the mic before he starts the Sacrament prayer, so why is it okay during a temple sealing ordinance? It is embarrassing that we hold this ceremony as the most sacred in the Church and yet it is administered in such a strange, awkward, and non-sacred way. Our aversion to tuxes and special dresses only adds to the awkwardness of Mormon weddings.
Sometimes it feels like our LDS culture is akin to the YFZ ("Yearning For Zion") Ranch in Texas in terms of our cultural aversion to anything sophisticated, classy, or any possession of quality or high craftsmanship.
Instead of cultivating a loser mentality whereby we condition ourselves to develop greater pride from the bottom looking up, we ought to encourage greatness in every aspect of life. Why disparage wealthy members who build nice homes next to the temple? Why talk down members who go all out for their departing missionary, their engaged son or daughter, or their deceased grandfather? What is so wrong about doing your best to recognize these people?!
Remember that it is more common and more deadly to be guilty of the sin of pride from the bottom looking up. That's the greater problem I see in the LDS culture.
Posts: 5 | Registered: May 2009
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posted
--P.S. Even though I defended wealthier members who build their nice homes next to temples and can afford an elaborate wedding reception I am far from being rich myself. Believe me. I'm not merely being self-serving in my comment.
Posts: 5 | Registered: May 2009
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posted
As usual I enjoyed your weekly article in the Deseret News. In your article you said, "Lately I've heard of an even-more-appalling fad that is sweeping through the church." I wish to express some of my own observations and experiences with bunko aka bonco. It is not a new fad. My grandmother participated in a bunko group in the 1940's in Snowville, Utah and since it has been around that long I don't know if it can be classified as a fad. I have participated in a bonco group (also known as girl’s night out) since 1996. It has been a wonderful, uplifting experience. We, the girls in the group, find our monthly bonco night a time to bond, socialize and uplift each other. We have supported each other through divorce, adoptions, death of a child, wayward children, breast cancer, infertility and other challenges and changes in our lives. The current ages of the women range from 21-49, with a couple of mother and daughters in the group. We live in the cities from North Salt Lake to Clinton. The women in the group are not all LDS or acting LDS. Very few of us are in the same wards. We do not restrict who or how many can participate. I do, however, feel strongly that we are living what the gospel preaches. We are supporting and uplifting each other. And as for the gambling part, we each bring a five dollar gift. At the end of the game we each get to choose a gift, in the order according to our final score and number of "boncos". High score selects a gift first and low score chooses second and so on. Each bonco night is always crazy, and fun and very uplifting.
Thanks for your time. Just thought I would let you know some of the positive aspects of "bonco".
Posts: 1 | Registered: May 2009
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I started a thread a few years ago here on Nauvoo that had to do with the elaborate dresses being purchased (or made) for little girls being baptized. I love little girls in white dresses - - the frillier the better - - but when a white dress becomes a social requirement for baptism, I think we're at risk of diluting the focus of the ordinance, as well as contributing to a culture of competition in a sacred event where competition has no place. I can envision a baptism where a child whose family is not up on Mormon socialisms shows up in a nice plaid jumper and goes home feeling like a loser.
The original post was not well received. In fact, some of the first responders were so hostile to my suggestion that white dresses might be getting out of hand I decided to delete the thread (after giving notice.)
posted
Dear Brother Card, I have participated in the EVILS of BUNKO and am trying to figure out exactly which gospel principle I need repent for violating. You see when our little group gets together we indeed give the host ten whole dollars that she uses to offset the cost of the meal, snacks, and beverages that are served to the 12 ladies that attend. (It used to be $7 but that wasn't enough to cover it so we raised it to $10) We spend about three hours whooping it up throwing stuff animals at the lady in the group who gets a bunko. What does she get if she's the BIG winner. Glory of course! Your right in that I've never seen anyone even attempt to pay tithes on it. I guess the part about taking home to big pursue escaped us. But thank you for lumping all Bunko into the category of gambling. I had planned to host a bunko party to get to know the sisters in my new branch, we just moved, but I'll be sure not to mention it now. Gambling, I'm from Nevada and have never seen a Bunko table, never even heard of it until I was invited to play with some school teachers in Japan, and then I was corrupted.
I wonder you also consider playing UNO after family home evening to detract from the spirit you see we generally keep score not unlike in Bunko. The only thing the winner walks away with is the glory of getting few points than everyone else.
Isn't passing judgement on your neighbor a bit of a sin?
Oh, and just one last thought $10 is less than it cost to attend a movie or even a play at my child's H.S. and we enjoy good company, dinner, and snacks as well. And to think I thought I had engaged in harmless fun? Puzzling. I'll be sure to watch for you next column I'm sure it will be so enlightening.
Posts: 1 | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Instead, these examples are merely trite commentaries that probably popped into his head when he heard the local gossip last week after church.
(snip)
quote:Rather than being horrified at our excess, the pioneers might have been envious and resentful they were called to pass through abject poverty and hardship if they saw our prosperous society. We just can't claim to know what their reaction to our lifestyle would be with any degree of certainty.
What I'm hearing: "I can tell what's going through your head, but don't you dare presume what would go through others'!"
Quoting Marcia:
quote:I wonder you also consider playing UNO after family home evening to detract from the spirit you see we generally keep score not unlike in Bunko. The only thing the winner walks away with is the glory of getting few points than everyone else.
I think you fail a reading comprehension test. Scott Card was decrying the practice of "friendly gambling" under the guise of playing Bunko. If you're not gambling, he's not talking about you. Do you really have to go out of your way to find things to take personal offense at?
quote: Isn't passing judgement on your neighbor a bit of a sin?
If it is, then stop sinning by passing judgment against Brother Card.
posted
I knew Bunko would be a contraversial topic! We had a bunko group a few years back but dissolved it when one member's bishop asked her to stop playing. Sure, we were a bit baffled, but we weren't going to die on that hill and go inactive. We still get together, but we just do other stuff like quilting (a.k.a. "stitch & bitch"), go to a movie, make cards, whatever.
I have to chime in regarding the topic of white dresses. I almost drove off the road when I heard a radio ad for White Elegance that stated that the dresses were "popular with temple workers", and that we should purchase our children's Pioneer Trek clothing there. Huh? So now we have to outdo each other in the temple and whilst dressing as pioneers?
And don't get me started on TempleChecks (if you can't bring the moneychangers to the temple, bring the temple to the moneychangers!) and other enterprises designed to profit from the various programs of the church.
Posts: 4 | Registered: May 2009
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quote: He could have taught them about the Plan of Salvation. He could have read scripture to them or He could have born amazing testimony. He didn't.
We don't know that. You are right that He mourned them. He loved them. We don't however, know everything He said to them.
One of the most spiritual experiences of my life was at a funeral where the family of the deceased talked about the part of the plan of salvation this man had been studying in the scriptures the night before/morning of his death. The rest of family were much comforted by this.
You are right that we really do need to mourn with others. We need to make sure that we don't preach about the gospel just because it is a good time. The two are not mutually exclusive though and much comfort can be taken in the combination of them.
quote: Scott Card was decrying the practice of "friendly gambling" under the guise of playing Bunko. If you're not gambling, he's not talking about you.
This is what I felt.
Posts: 4947 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
The definition of gambling is not based on whether or not you enjoy it. It isn't even whether or not ladies build friendships doing it. the definition of gambling is in the structure of the game.
Friendships, good times, flying stuffed animals not withstanding- if you put something up (money, trinkets, chocolate, or gifts) and then play bunco for it- it's gambling.
And what in the world is a TempleCheck? I have the worst feeling that I don't want to know.
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