posted
I didn't say it was a gospel principle. Look it is fine with me if people disagree. I am talking about what I teach my kids and none of you need to change what you teach your kids because of what I say.
I am saying that there are some general principles I have discussed with my kids about choosing a spouse and missionary service is one of them. ONE of them. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
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posted
I don't see anything with teaching it as a guideline either. However, it seems to me that either some kids have gone one step beyond, or some parents have taught it one step beyond.
And in some cases, even with an LDS point of view, it becomes a prejudice.
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posted
The problem, as I see it, is teaching that RM=Righteous Man. I don't believe that is an automatic equivalent, and I've seen too many young girls fall for it. I would rather teach to marry a "good man worthy to take you the temple, cherish you, and build a happy life together". RM, standing alone, doesn't have much to do with that.
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posted
It's more important to me that my children marry in the temple than marry an RM. I don't think that not having served a mission should be an automatic exclusion. But if they want to marry someone who's a member and of an age to serve a mission and has chosen not to, there had better be a really good reason why not, and some pretty in depth discussions. I think that's a fair standard.
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quote:the attitude of automatically casting aside everyone who has not served a mission is something I don't understand at all.
I don't understand that attitude either, but that is not the attitude EDG has. I think there are few people that have the attitude.
Having "RM" on your list of what you want in a husband isn't prejudice any more than having "dark hair" on your list. The problem only comes when you turn down a man for only that reason or feel like you have settled because of it. A woman who turns away a man for only that reason is probably lacking in maturity.
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posted
I don't necessarily stress the RM part to my daughter today because around here, they are few and FAR between. But I remember a generation ago using these guidelines in the USA for a prospective mate: * an Eagle Scout * a RM--from a successful mission * a worthy TR holder No one expected that these three qualifications guaranteed a perfect union, but the expectation of a prepared and "together" partner was higher.
These days with the mission quest for excellence at a higher level, I am not sure that there will be enough RM's to go around. What I teach my kids today is that I would rather have them stay single, righteous, and self-sufficient, than marry outside the temple.
But then, I live in a place where members hit the age of teen and go inactive. And I cannot afford to send the kids to BYU-anything, just to get a partner.
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This makes me smile because back on page 2 when I said I had pictures of the temple on some of my checks - missionary work was the main reason I had them.
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posted
Well technically you could answer the are you a RM? with
"well shucks aint every member a missionary? you should hear about my friends at work, I gave one a copy of the Book of Mormon...." and it goes on.
Seriously I was always told by my parents to respect my elders and in a lot of things this is true. Yet just being old does not automatically garunte respect, same could be said for RMs. If we start thinking that some people are better than others we walk down a dangerous path. Now in my bet Reverend Lovejoy (re; Simpsons) voice.
What you do unto the least of your bretheren, you do unto me.....
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posted
Yes, we should all be missionaries. But doing so in our leisure time while we persue our hobbies and goals does not constitute a sacrifice.
If a young man tried that line with my husband, he would be marched out the door in minutes. If one of my girls brings home a young man that has not served a mission for a worthy reason, I am still going to be looking for something in that guys life that was hard and a sacrifice. I want to see something impressive that shows commitment, determination, and self denial.
I value missionaries and the extrordinary thing they do. Yes, they aren't all perfect. Yes, some of them fail. But I am looking at the larger picture of what a mission is. I have known too many YM who quit and came home early, some who never left the MTC. It is hard. YM who self select themselves out of the work are not the guys I want my daughters pinning their futures on.
It is so weird to me that I have to debate or defend that here of all places. I talked to my husband about it and he is way more inflexible about it than me. He says the bar is as high for marrying his girls as it is for serving the Lord.
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posted
My missionary service was in a country with reasonably modern medical care, which may explain why we were sent a couple of missionaries with Krohn's disease. One had it well under control and served out his mission without incident. The other got sent home after his second bowel resection.
I believe it would have been better for the second not to have gone out in the first place. Then again, his illness meant that a large number of health care providers in a country none too friendly to Mormons came into close contact with the mission and the Church under circumstances where the faith and dedication were very much on display.
It's exceedingly hard to outguess the Lord in His purposes.
If I had a daughter and she brought home a non-RM, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me. But then, if I had a daughter and she brought home someone who did not have a college degree or a credible plan to obtain one, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me. If she brought home someone who was not from our culture, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to to me, because marriage is hard enough when it's not cross-cultural. If he had Aspberger's Syndrome, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me. If he was a Type I diabetic, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me (I would expect, at the very least, that he had his disease well under control and had managed to make adequate arrangements for health care and life insurance.) Etc.
I can be very broad-minded and tolerant of people who are not asking to marry my daughter.
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My 3 girls know that a boy having served a mission can say a lot about them. So can a boy having stayed home. The details will vary from person to person and we are bright enough people to grasp the concept that there can be exceptions.
My 4 boys know that the expectation is that they set a full time mission at the top of their "things to do" list. This requires them to measure their actions now, and we have almost daily conversations about that. I don't see having conversations about how the way they behave now will effect what they hope to do in the future is anything but good. The possibility that the girl of their dreams may weigh a mission heavily isn't necessarily a bad thing, either.
Again, we are not so simple minded as to ignore the exceptions...only that we don't focus on exceptions.
When they raised the bar, I don't think it was to keep young men out. It was to encourage young men to rise to the occasion.
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quote:If I had a daughter and she brought home a non-RM, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me. But then, if I had a daughter and she brought home someone who did not have a college degree or a credible plan to obtain one, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me. If she brought home someone who was not from our culture, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to to me, because marriage is hard enough when it's not cross-cultural. If he had Asperger's Syndrome, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me. If he was a Type I diabetic, he would have an extra burden of proving himself to me (I would expect, at the very least, that he had his disease well under control and had managed to make adequate arrangements for health care and life insurance.) Etc.
By the time you get to this stage (i.e. "If I had a daughter and she brought home XYZ...") it is too late. You have no say in the matter.
posted
The thing that amazes me, since serving my mission, is that more male RMs don't look for a RM as a wife. There was just so much that I learned through my mission about the gospel, working with people, marriage etc. that it was hard for me to imagine not marrying a RM.
It doesn't seem to work that way with most men though. It makes me wonder why. My gut feeling is that it isn't because men are expected to go and women are not. There's something more.
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quote: By the time you get to this stage (i.e. "If I had a daughter and she brought home XYZ...") it is too late. You have no say in the matter.
I think this is true assuming that you want to have a continuing non-hostile relationship with your child.
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posted
ANd that is one of the reasons that the discussion shouldn't wait until they are bringing the guy home. That is why we talk about picking a good partner now.
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posted
Well, my littlest girl is 6. She is just starting to consider not living with her daddy forever and ever and ever.
My girls have heard it their whole lives. They know. They have heard it from my husband and I and my in-laws and the friends close to our family. They even saw some situations that gave room for discussion. Hopefully, it will help.
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posted
I can't use my usual profile, because I am at work, and my password is saved at home. But I have a strong need to let you know how this discussion affects me and mine.
I am not a returned missionary. My spouse is not a returned missionary.
We are active in the Church, honest and diligent servants of the Lord. We try to be obedient.
We are in the process of raising several children. They are smart, funny, and hard workers. They attend seminary (one son rode his bicycle to seminary all winter, and never had to be reminded to go). Two are already Eagle Scouts; one has almost earned a Bronze, Gold, and Silver in Venturing, as well. One has recently returned home from his mission. Another is preparing to put in his papers.
When our oldest was preparing to put his papers in, our Bishop hesitated because of our sons Asperger's-like tendencies. But our son had a very strong desire to serve God as a full-time missionary; and after fasting and attending the Temple on the matter, the Bishop decided to endorse his application. He was called, and served valiantly and well. We delighted in seeing the testimony he had prior to his mission blossom even further. But while he was out, a mission psychologist confirmed the Asperger's diagnosis; he was sent home with a medical release within 12 hours, after serving just over 15 months. He was told about the release only hours before boarding the plane.
I think I understand the "why" of what you are teaching your children, and share the desire that our children make choices that maximize their eternal potential.
But I cannot help but feel fundamentally and critically hurt knowing that my best, my spouse's best, and my son's best will never be good enough for you.
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quote: He was called, and served valiantly and well. We delighted in seeing the testimony he had prior to his mission blossom even further. But while he was out, a mission psychologist confirmed the Asperger's diagnosis; he was sent home with a medical release within 12 hours, after serving just over 15 months. He was told about the release only hours before boarding the plane.
<HUGE rant: people who thing the Prophet is infallible, please look away> We have a related issue here in the family . I am praying that the situation will be better handled in 4 years when Boy is ready to go. This is the one and only time I would go toe to toe with the Prophet if I had to. Please don't cover my Boy with that blanket policy, if you don't mind, sir.
If your good Elder was serving valiantly and well, why was he not given the courtesy of completing his mission and why in heaven's name did he only have hours to pack and get out of Dodge like some persona non grata? The Elder has alternative wiring, not ground zero germs for the plague. AND WAS DOING WELL. PLUS he is a cognizant being that has feelings---oh boy, this makes all my short hairs just stand straight up.
<OK rant over, you can look again.>
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posted
Jana, I oversimplified. Please don't get ready to go toe-to-toe with the Prophet. In retrospect, I recognize the value of the policy, but only wish a reasonable alternative mission had been available (but how do you explain or even request an alternative mission when the young man in question looks well and healthy on the exterior, has a vibrant testimony, and makes straight-As in college?... besides, would an "alternative mission" satisfy the concerns expressed in this thread? I doubt it.)
It depends on the definition of "well." Judging by what we heard directly from those he taught, he taught well, and by the Spirit, such that in the last week before he came home, six new members in two families were baptized. But, due to his "different wiring", as you put it, he did have troubles with the constant companionship of, well, companions. A mission is not set up for recouping down-time from social contact, which my son needed. It is complicated to explain. He served as well as he could... indeed, the reviewing authority was impressed with his valiant efforts that allowed him to last as long as he did. This is not a matter of quitting and giving up, or not trying to change, or being mentally weak.
And I understand why such qualities might not make for an easy marriage; maybe marriage is not in the cards for him, or at least not any time soon. The problem is with the writing-off of the individual. So, here, we hear of parents warning their daughters away from such as my son; yet if marriage is part of the Plan for him, it could not be with a young woman from a strong family. And if not, he would likely be judged on outward appearances for not having diligently sought a mate, for not fulfilling his responsibilities.
I am not a return missionary. Far from it. I am a screw-up extrordinaire. I get that. I know this is a really emotional issue for people. But all I can say is please read exactly what I have said. Not what people think it means. Not as short hand for other people's opinions.
Read what I have said. I have said that I value a mission and the experience it brings. I have said that I think the bar is high for marrying my daughter. I have said I want to see commitment and sacrifice and selflessness.
I think life is hard. I think a successful life requires toughness and dedication. I have talked about YM who have come home because it was tough. I see many who wont go because it was too big a sacrifice.
Nowhere- anywhere did I said that I could not see anything else. Nowhere did I said that your kids best was not enough. He did it. He went. He didn't ask to come home. He didn't fail in any way. He didn't refuse to go because he wanted to persue his studies or his testimony was shaky or he slept around in high school.
He made the sacrifice. He did the work. How is that not good enough?
I am sure it was a heartbreak to have that happen to your son. I can't imagine how he felt. But even as dissapointing as that all was, he is an RM. He did serve honorably and he was released honorably.
Be proud of your kid. Be proud of your best and his. It doesn't matter if it would be good enough for me (and it would).
But no, the kid who didn't try or came home from the MTC because he felt depressed- I don't want my daughters relying on. Life is hard and you need a testimony and determination. It looks to me like your kid has that.
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You and I talked about this, face-to-face, when the mission call was pending. I remember your kind empathy as I shared my deepest concerns. The "you" in the original post was generic, not specifically directed at you who happened to have made the post immediately preceding mine. I know that you would have room in your heart for me and mine; the issue is whether our shared culture in general would. Of that, I am not so sure.
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posted
A particular juxtaposition of literary theme that takes up a chair and settles down in my mind from time to time is the contrast between Aslan's attitude to knowing other's stories (C.S. Lewis "The Horse and His Boy") contrasted Ender Wiggin's attitude (our Esteemed Host's "Speaker for the Dead"). Aslan taught that we must endure and love even without knowing the other guy's story; but Ender shows us that in understanding the other guy's story, we gain tremendous insight and empathy. But in neither story does the character in question get to know the other guy's story during the other guy's life.
In real life, people can only make choices by what they are able to see externally; on occasion, the Spirit -- in what I suspect is true Charity -- enlightens that which cannot be outwardly seen.
Sometimes, the outwardly visual story of a person's life can be deceiving. For example, my spouse was baptized at age 9, but did not serve a mission. The outward appearance of those facts -- which are evident on his membership record -- would suggest that perhaps he was not faithful or had some serious problem. But what cannot be seen on the membership record is the real story, involving a family gone (flagrantly) inactive shortly after the baptism, moving to a very small branch in a backwater place, and a branch president who never even considered speaking to him about a mission. As a stint in the military was the way out of nowhere (a nowhere that quickly ate up his younger sisters' lives), by the time he had rediscovered the Church, learned its teachings, and was available to serve, the opportunity to serve had passed.
Which story would the average church member know? It depends on what they ask (which they do... "so, where did you serve your mission?" followed by "how old were you when you were baptized?"). There is a certain level of suspicion that arises out of the answers my spouse gives to these questions. But should he be obliged to tell his backstory as a prerequisite to be accepted as a worthy priesthood holder? Wouldn't that get tiresome to hear? What if telling the backstory implicates private information about others (who are now active members residing within the mission)?
Or, suppose you (generically!) were in my ward. Out of respect for our son's privacy, and at his request, we have told very few people the 'backstory' on why the mission was cut short. You can count on your fingers. You note that only 15 months have passed since my son went on his mission. Suppose you felt concerned that yet another young man 'dropped out' of serving a mission, setting a bad example for the younger fellows in the ward. With no further information coming from the parents (who, because they have been serving in primary for many years, are generally not well known to many in the ward), what might you conclude?
Grace, it is easy for you to know and accept that my son served valiantly, because you know us a little, and know his (our) backstories. But those who do not know us well cannot see it the same way. Because backstories can be painful, are filled with choices we might rather have not made, and sometimes implicate the privacies of others, I tend to side with Aslan, on keeping them private and shared only in appropriate settings. It is with those who do not and cannot know the true backstory that I am concerned, and the judgments they might make based on the standards discussed in this thread.
quote: A mission is not set up for recouping down-time from social contact, which my son needed.
Been there, done that.
quote: And I understand why such qualities might not make for an easy marriage
Regrettably true.
Statistics show an AS marrying a non-AS has a rather high risk of divorce. AS marrying AS, curiously, has no greater risk of divorce than a non-AS non-AS marriage. Regrettably, there are ten male AS for every female AS.
I don't think I would counsel an AS man to marry. Nor would I counsel an AS man not to marry, though I might point out the challenges and risks.
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You are absolutely right that in no way can we decide from simply whether or not a person has served a mission that they are a good person.
If you were in my ward, it wouldn't matter one bit that your husband hadn't served a mission. My husband didn't. He converted after marriage, but still. People's stories are their stories and you are correct when you say that you shouldn't have to tell your story to everyone to get their understanding and approval.
However, if my husband and I were getting to know a young man who seemed to have interests in marrying our daughter, we'd be asking all kinds of questions that would be inappropriate to ask a mere ward member or even friend. Our stewardship is different. Our concerns are different.
And please remember that I said twice in my post that we were aware enough to recognize that there are exceptions.
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quote: But I cannot help but feel fundamentally and critically hurt knowing that my best, my spouse's best, and my son's best will never be good enough for you.
My dad didn't serve a mission. One of the reasons RM was on my list was because he felt he missed out on something that could have helped him. I've never looked down on him for that. I've only been proud of him for what he has done.
My nephew came home recently from his mission. Since going to therapy to deal with it they have discovered he may have Asperger's. He is now serving a mission working on computers while living at home. I wish that this opportunity had been available for others like him through the years.
I know you said it was the culture that you were worried about, but if I personally hurt you I am sorry. It was never my intention to say those who hadn't served a mission were less than me, but I'm sorry if it came out that way.
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I would hope that the same charity extended to EDG in understanding her position would be extended to the rest of us, whom you don't know already.
Maybe my reading comprehension is spotty (although I doubt it). I have not seen ANYONE advocating writing off non-RMs, except in the short-hand sense ("tall, dark and RM") of desirable traits or experience because it's ungainly to tack on every darned nuance and possible exception to every statement. Your son is emphatically NOT being dismissed by ANYONE; in fact, several posters have gone out of their way to clarify that the worthy-but-unable-to-serve are not excluded.
I know it's hard when an issue is close to you, but please give the benefit of the doubt to your fellow Saints, and try not to assume that any statement could only be meant in the most hurtful way possible.
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posted
YANM here. I appreciate the kind words and reassurances. It has been an interesting day to ponder on why I feel tender-hearted about the expression of these preferences. Perhaps it is the recent stake conference talk about how good missionaries are ones whose dads shared their mission experiences with them as they grew up. Or the fellow who asked my husband what was wrong with him, since he thought surely by now he would have been called to some sort of leadership position.
Or maybe it is my own social cluelessness that makes me so sensitive to stereotyping (they say Asperger's is highly heritable, and I have more than one nephew with it, besides my own son, and can guess that a couple of never-married uncles did, too... maybe it's me as well).
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posted
It is almost like you were looking over my shoulder when you reported the BUNKO story. I was the substitute player who pointed out that the group was gambling. The results were identical - contributions reduced from $10 to $5, and proceeds to charity. BRAVO - and thank you.
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quote: However, if my husband and I were getting to know a young man who seemed to have interests in marrying our daughter, we'd be asking all kinds of questions that would be inappropriate to ask a mere ward member or even friend. Our stewardship is different. Our concerns are different.
I would not agree that parents have the right to ask (or at least to receive answers to) any questions of their child's proposed spouse. I think their child has absolute stewardship to do due diligence, but when parents try to do it, sometimes that actively discourages the child from doing it in a way that interferes with the best outcome.
Parent stewardship in my view would include inviting proposed spouse often to family service projects, fun times, and normal life, and giving their child opportunities to see how they work and get along with people who are different from them, and how their patience and humor levels are ---- none of which can be determined by giving answers to questions.
Parent stewardship might also include helping child prepare his or her own questions (preferably before any possible prospective spouse comes on the horizon), and there are books of questions they can buy and provide their children.
But while I as a prospective spouse might tolerate a few questions along the lines of what are your intentions, other or extensive questions would be considered meddling and inconsistent with parental stewardship (not that it would be inconsistent with parental desires --- there's a whole lot more I'd like to ask about my adult children's lives which I know are none of my business unless asked.)
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posted
Brother Card, Your May 16th article was a bull's eye. I just wish you would also have mentioned weddings at the temples and the use of limos and the wearing of lavish appearl to exit the temple. I like the example of President Hunter when he announced to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles that he was getting married. He told them that none of them were invited except the one performing the sealing. David F. King Nauvoo, Illinois
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posted
WOW! Brother Card has done here what he does best, inspire debate. Unfortunately, in my opinion, that debate has taken on a life of its own. "Is it gambling, is it not, when and what makes it gambling?" "Is it a game of chance or a game of skill?" "RM versus non-RM?" etc., etc.
It seems most of the responders are too busy picking the fly specks out of the proverbial pepper rather than grinding a new batch, so here is my perspective:
I think it comes down to one's testimony. For those of you who do not know me, I am a relatively new member. I love to write essays. I have filled hard drives with my rantings.I wrote an essay last year and want to reproduce it here. THIS ESSAY EXPLAINS BEST HOW I FEEL AND WHY;
"Recently I was invited to meet a non-member friend at a local restaurant on a Wednesday night. The restaurant hosted karaoke and I love to sing, so the event seemed innocent enough. My friend and I shared a pizza. With the meal, I ordered a non-alcoholic beer, making certain my friend knew I was not imbibing.
"After the table was cleared, I ordered another non-alcoholic beer (mostly to fit in). The karaoke had started, and another friend, a member of my ward, arrived. We invited her to join our table. I assured her my beer was harmless. I remember distinctly using that term, "harmless".
"Later in the evening, a young lady from my ward came in with her date. I did not know the young man she was with. They were there to have dinner and sing a little karaoke. The young lady was one of my home teaching assignments. I was stunned and embarrassed, for there I sat, beer in hand, I'm sure looking like the biggest sot in the place. I felt awkward and out of place.
"I left the restaurant immediately, slinking out the door like a snake slithering through hot sand. I felt terrible. There was no tactful opportunity to tell the young lady, who clearly saw me, that my beer was "harmless". My remorse was overwhelming and my ego crushed. I came, then and there, to fully understand the word 'contrite'.
"I drove home, praying the entire way, for forgiveness. My soul searching helped me understand, more than ever, that wise saying, 'The appearance of impropriety is in itself improper'. As Greek Poet Simonides of Ceos said, "Appearance overpowers even the truth". My testimony was severely damaged and I knew it.
"More so, I knew, suddenly, that some of my other, similar actions also had a damaging effect on my testimony to those who need it most, the non-members who know me. My soul searching opened my eyes to the fact that I do not have the opportunity to tell all those people I am a non-drinker, immersed only in the Word of Wisdom..
"The following Sunday at my ward's Sacrament Meeting, I looked for the young lady, hoping for an opportunity to explain and apologize. She was not in attendance. My remorse deepened. Had I been such a disappointment that she abandoned her faith? I saw her mother after the service and inquired about her. Her mother explained she was simply away for the weekend. (Whew!)
"I did get an opportunity the next Sunday to see her and apologize. She was gracious and laughed it off.
"What is most striking to me is the 'coincidence' surrounding this event. Just one week before the incident, I had been in a Stake Singles Committee meeting, defending the practice of single members organizing and going out to dance in bars where alcohol is consumed. 'I don't see anything wrong with it', I said, 'Christ mixed with the sinners', I boldly added.
I now know the appearance of impropriety is impropriety. Heavenly Father, the Master of Coincidence, knows my heart and knows I meant well. Our Eternal Father also knows how to fill an open heart with a perfect understanding.
I do understand... perfectly.
--Bob Womack Friday, July 11, 2008
Copyright 2008, Bob Womack Enterprises. All rights reserved.
I think things like "Bunko" can be easily perceived by non-members, potential investigators and other fragile types as improper behavior.
posted
Bit more culture difference: out in the sticks in Europe, there are limited numbers of RMs. It would be nice for my 10 year old to have a nice RM to marry when the time comes, but to be honest, we'll be delighted if he is an active member. Mind you, my wife chose a non-member and that seems to have worked out. Anyway, let's all pray for a time when all little girls have a large pool of RMs to choose between. That's when Zion is really building!
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I appreciated your essay and its point about avoiding the very appearance of evil, and your taking responsibility for your actions and trying to repair the damage that you perceived.
Good for you!
Buuuuuuuuut (you knew that was coming). One quote troubles me:
quote:...My testimony was severely damaged and I knew it. ...
Do you mean that "the power of your testimony to effect others positively" was damaged due to your perceived "hypocrisy?"
Because, if that is what you meant, I can agree with that statement.
But it seems to me that your testimony is as strong as ever, and you just needed an experience to help you (and may I say, me, because you shared the experience so well) to understand a gospel principle better.
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posted
Sweet William, you are truly sweet (and perceptive)! Thank you for your clarification. You CAN agree with the statement as that is exactly what I meant. Although my testimony is new, it is strong, and strengthened every day by the likes of you.
Some day, I would like to share my essay, "Righteous Mormon" with you and get your feedback. I think it is one of my better ones.
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quote: Anyway, let's all pray for a time when all little girls have a large pool of RMs to choose between.
I'm picturing a big, blue swimming pool stuffed with RMs in suits, all wet and little girls circling the pool, pointing and saying, "I want that one!" while licking ice cream cones.
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quote: I'm picturing a big, blue swimming pool stuffed with RMs in suits, all wet and little girls circling the pool, pointing and saying, "I want that one!" while licking ice cream cones.
The likely unintentional sexual connotations of this sentence are at least smirk worthy and quite possibly full on blush material.
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