posted
No takers? Though I don't have experience in marriage, this sounds useful. Both partners have good intentions, but neither can read the other's mind.
However, there are so many people offering marriage advice. What is really the best counsel?
[ December 20, 2011, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Jason ]
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Being celibate myself, I don't have a lot of practical experience with physical intimacy, but I have friends and relatives who have opened up to me (sometimes more than I would have liked). It strikes me that when President Kimball identified sex and money as the two issues on which he most frequently saw LDS marriages founder, he overstated the importance of money.
I think there is something to what OSC says. We in the Church find it terribly difficult to talk about sex, to the point where we insist on using the slightly vague phrase "physical intimacy". Given the abandon with which the world now talks about sex, perhaps this is a good thing, to a point. Some marriages seem to get beyond that point.
My personal experience gives me this much insight: Having a fairly normal libido, but having had no prospects for a legal and lawful sexual relationship for many years now, and living in a world drenched in sexuality, I have had to develop something of that inner stone as a bulwark against the cauldron of sexual desire. OSC uses these metaphors for somewhat different things, but it's stone soup either way, and I can see how the married version would be terribly destructive.
I'm not sure the problem is always communication, or, at least, not a breakdown in communication as we normally understand it. I know of more than one couple where the difference in sexual desire is so extreme that there is really no hope of a satisfactory compromise. When the husband would like sex three times a week, and the wife would prefer sex three times a decade (I am not exaggerating), there's really no satisfactory compromise. THe problem isn't lack of communication; they are communicating with each other all too well, and sometimes a bit of distance is the only thing that is letting them stay in the same house.
It's not enough that the couple improve their communication technique; an actual change of heart is needed. I don't know how to change hearts. I have a tough enough time changing my own heart, even with all the help Christ can send my way. OSC does touch on this.
Better to educate our youngsters well before they are married. I believe it is a grave mistake many parents make to leave this to the public schools. I sometimes wish the Church was more candid in its own educational materials, but I understand that there may be good reasons for the hesitation to do so. I know of other faiths where the priest will not marry a couple until they have had what amounts to marriage preparation classes with him, where these issues are discussed candidly. My admittedly limited insight and imperfect wisdom suggests the Church really ought to do the same. I am thinking particularly of a young couple I once knew whose marriage preparation was limited to a priesthood leader warning them, as he signed their recommend, to avoid becoming too close until after they were married. I do not wish to be guilty of "steadying the ark", but that strikes me as grossly inadequate.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
Roper, I get what you're saying and I agree that some (most) details shouldn't be shared. I have been uncomfortable at times when I felt too much was shared during conversations with friends. But I also remember how empowering it was to discover in these conversations that other apparently happy, normal couples had faced and overcome problems/awkwardness in their sexual relationship. Just knowing that practical help and advice is available gives hope. Not everybody thinks to turn to a professional, or has the resources to pay for one, especially when things aren't "that bad" yet - and I think there is a lot that can and should be discussed, so it doesn't get to a point where you need professional help. My husband and I took two marriage prep classes - one of which was fairly candid about sexuality and practical matters. We were probably more prepared and informed than the average Mormon couple - and there were still some surprises and difficulties for us, that information from my friends helped to fix. I'm talking about things like candid reviews of birth control methods, lubricants, websites and books that could give pointers, etc. My sister and her husband were actually counseled by their stake president NOT to consult any books or websites on sex, to learn everything from each other. That is just about the worst marriage advice I could possibly think of.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2006
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I could see military guys having an issue with this, but inside the Church mine and my wife's experience would suggest that women are far, far worse about this than men. And "Sex and the City" (haven't watched it, but it's a big enough part of the culture that I get the gist of it) leads me to believe that the same is true of our society at large.
Granted, we're only two people so I may be wrong.
Posts: 467 | Registered: Sep 2010
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posted
I've found that men talk more about bodily functions of all kinds more and women talk more about priesthood duties, husband and fatherhood more in my groups of friends.
I do think it depends on the group though. DH has found that in our last ward the men were very respectful of their wives and privacy. They only said something if they needed help or to be helped. In this ward most of the men come right out and tell all sorts of things.
I'd like to say that I have noticed women are far worse online, but I only visit 2 message boards - this one and one that is nearly all women so the odds will be skewed.
I'm not sure what to say about the column - maybe just that I agree and that I think guessing can harm in all areas of marriage.
Posts: 4945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote:I've found that men talk more about bodily functions of all kinds more and women talk more about priesthood duties
All the people of my acquaintance that talk about bodily functions are women. Labor stories and baby poop/puke stories abound.
Posts: 7928 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: An essential part of an intimate relationship with one's spouse is that the details about intimacy don't get shared with others. Unless it's a professional who is involved in helping to heal and who is bound by confidentiality
Roper, I have a great deal of respect for your opinions, but in this matter I respectfully disagree.
To my mind, there is a world of difference between a group of women out for a night on the town telling stories with too much detail, and a woman desperately needing someone to confide in, to find out if she's normal and the struggles of her marriage are normal.
Women often work out their problems by talking about them, and I think there's a time and place when a listening ear in a one-on-one situation is appropriate. I've been in about several situations where a friend opened up to me, and I've had the chance to simply listen, or let them know they're normal, or encourage them to seek professional help. In every case, the chance to open up made things better.
Waiting until things are bad enough to see a professional, when some simple advice early on could have solved a lot of problems doesn't make a lot of sense.
Personally, I wish we were a bit more open in the church. I think it would solve a lot of heartache.
But then I admit I'm also someone who believes strongly that we need to have a Temple Follow-up class even more than a Temple Prep class (it's unusual that one of the temple themes is "and tell me how it went after you're done," and yet there is nothing like that for people who've gone through for the first time.)
Sacred does not mean complete silence. Which is kind of ironic for an article about communication. (I hope I'm not coming across too strong. This area is a tender one for me.)
Posts: 1899 | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
dianoia, You don't come on too strong. For what it's worth I agree with you. I could have used a post-temple talk. The temple ceremonies were, for me, unexpected... Posts: 467 | Registered: Sep 2010
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quote: All the people of my acquaintance that talk about bodily functions are women. Labor stories and baby poop/puke stories abound.
OK, you got me there.
I wasn't thinking so much as one's own body functions, but sharing about a spouses body functions. And not just men talking about pregnant wives, but menopausal wives, periods, frequency, digestive issues etc.
* Covers the issue from spiritual aspect to detailed descriptions of all the physical aspects. Everything but pictures.
* Has a section on how/when to teach children.
* Covers a ton of common (and less common) problems, and what can be done about them. (The most common is the "Good Girls Don't" syndrome, btw.)
* Yes, it's been read and approved by the brethren. I know this through an LCSW aquaintance who works here in Colorado Springs. She helped the author review and edit. The author told her about submitting it to church HQ, who asked for one chapter to be removed, which the author did.
I consider it good parenting to have a kid encounter this book somewhere in the teen years.
Posts: 2107 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
My husband and I talked about everything before we were engaged (and then talked even more after we were engaged). We discussed sex, who to go to in case of marital difficulties, what is acceptable to share with family and friends, the appropriateness of using the bishop and parents as marital counselors, and a host of other things. I am one who believes that you can have a discussion of sex without it turning into a sinful, carnal, TMI session.
But when it comes to discussing sex with your spouse, then I would rather err on the side of TMI than TLI (too little information).
Posts: 3145 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
I also think there is much too much discussed about marital intimacy outside marriages. While I do understand the need to KNOW things (I read everything you wanted to know about sex in a library book I checked out at age 14, surreptitiously, of course), I also think both men and women can ask and learn about things without discussing their own or their spouses behavior or thoughts.
It is the difference between asking "how many times a week do you do it." and "what kinds of accommodations can work if the partners disagree on how often"
Posts: 2175 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I agree that the person you should talk with the most about sex is your spouse. Sometimes both partners are ignorant of what would improve their sex life, and need to find knowledge without wading through sleaze & smut.
quote: Maybe if both spouses are completely fine with sharing details outside the marriage, then it's okay. But if one spouse doesn't want those details shared, the other spouse should respect that.
Personally, I don't care much about the specific details as I do about the tone of the conversation. I wouldn't be pleased to learn that my husband was a part of a bragging, crude, locker-talk type of conversation. But I would hope that my husband would be willing to share almost anything* we've learned along the way, with somebody who needed some practical knowledge. And it wouldn't change my opinion of somebody or embarrass me to learn that a certain married couple has sex in the morning. Married people have sex morning, noon, and night. It's OK. Hollywood seems to have us convinced that only the young, wealthy, thin, glamorous, and beautiful people are or ought to be sexual. Well, it's perfectly alright and good that this 30-something, middle-class, chubby, frumpy, plain person has sex, too. *I realize this sounds like I'm disagreeing with my own last post, that most details shouldn't be shared - I was thinking then of the irreverent, gossipy type of conversations. Clam up, then, it's pearls before swine.
posted
Not being snarky, either: Are we assuming they started out with a completely blank slate? (Did they learn fire, agriculture, written and oral language completely on their own, too?) I have NO idea what their training on anything might have been. But two children alone in the world would need a lot more than sex ed to survive. I do agree that figuring out together 'what works for us' contributes to the trust and beauty of the relationship, and helps develop the sense of oneness. So does having the courage to admit when things aren't working. OSC said
quote: We have the irrational and unjustified expectation that our partner will simply know what we want.
I think it's also irrational to expect that everything you need to know about sex is just there in your own brain, waiting to be discovered. There are some things my husband and I have learned that would have taken us 600 years to figure out. Adam and Eve had that long, but we don't!
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I am wondering then, if a partnership is strictly limited to only conversing with one another, what does one do when one spouse is over sensitive and would be profoundly hurt if the other spouse ever spoke their truth about the issues in their intimate life? Especially if that spouse is opposed to "talking to strangers" meaning a therapist? I think suffering in silence is a marriage killer too. If one is very lucky, one can end up in a loyal but colorless brother sister partnership or unluckily, one can continue to take it all in and be damaged in many aspects of interpersonal relationships.
All because one had no one at all to talk to.
Posts: 5468 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:I wonder how Adam and Eve managed, without being able to hear stories from others about sexual intimacy.
Well, it's possible that my education on such things has been colored by the political climate of the university I went to. But the sources I've read seem to be in agreement - until a scant handful of decades ago, humans "managed" with a definition of the wife as helpmeet very different than today's definition which includes the concept of equal.
Posts: 2107 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote: I wonder how Adam and Eve managed, without being able to hear stories from others about sexual intimacy. My guess is that they figured it out together.
My guess is they received instructions from their Father.
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quote:I received some unsolicited advice that sex is intended for procreation only, and that sex for any other purpose, even between husband and wife, is lustful. Good thing I didn't listen, or I'd end up a pinched-face old crank like him.
If that were true, then the husband and I would never have had sex since I can't conceive.
I'm not married but I know how physical intimacy works and I figure there'll probably be things I enjoy about it and things that will gross me out or surprise or disappoint me and I'm prepared to accept that. It can be a little odd sometimes however talking with married friends and when the conversation comes up have them be so well erm frank about their experiences with sexual intimacy. I have dear friends who understand that physical intimacy is a experience I have yet to have and are very tactful about talking about it, more encouraging me and advising me when I finally do get married about what to expect and things to keep in mind. I'm grateful for that because frankly for someone like me it's a bit intimidating and scary to think about and for me being TOO tmi about stuff like that tends to heighten fears about inadequacy. I believe in setting boundaries. I really do not want to hear ALL the intricate details about someone else's married life because stuff like that IS private and sacred...and I have been acquainted with people who have been just a little too TMI about their marriages and it's really too much.
Bottom line, married folks please be tactful and kind about talking about physical intimacy with your single friends. We appreciate it Posts: 409 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
The entire animal kingdom does not need to consult any books to figure sex out. I think the smartest species on the planet can figure it out just fine.
Posts: 506 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:The entire animal kingdom does not need to consult any books to figure sex out. I think the smartest species on the planet can figure it out just fine.
Huh. And I think that the smartest species on the planet can figure out how to do differential calculus. So, why consult any books on that?
Posts: 3145 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Ok, so did I just read two posts that are imposing the view that sex between two virgins somehow will not work unless having consulted books or instruction prior to sex??
posted
No no, Jedi master. I'm pretty sure most of us had figured out the basics of sex while still virgins without consulting sex books. Playground instruction was plenty sufficient. However, I see no issue with consulting appropriate books, websites, etc. to enhance each other's expertise.
posted
Methinks they were simply implying that, while sex between animals is usually for species propagation and little else, sex between humans is a whole different, um, animal. Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Books on physical intimacy are never a good thing.
Because all men are created equal.
And so are women.
And everything always works the way nature intended.
So anyone who has any problems on their wedding night and beyond are just plumb crazy. It's all in their head. Just work through it, because the problem really isn't there--you just think it is.
(A really big sarcasm graemlin would be perfect right about now.)
Edited to clarify that this comes from a professional outlook. This was a big part of my degree.
quote: I'm pretty sure most of us had figured out the basics of sex while still virgins without consulting sex books.
Oh, I don't know about that. I recall reading right here on Nauvoo (not naming names, but she's still an active Nauvoodle) that one young bride had to show her husband the basics on their initial efforts.
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quote:Ok, so did I just read two posts that are imposing the view that sex between two virgins somehow will not work unless having consulted books or instruction prior to sex??
It all depends on your definition of "work". Frankly, it "works" for men nearly 100% of the time with hardly any knowledge necessary beyond the basics. That's not true for 100% of women. So yes, if we want to be like animals and just ensure propagation of the species, it will "work" without any further instruction (although to be fair, even those two virgins probably received some instruction from their parents at some point, so it's not like they are completely ignorant).
But if we want to be human, with care and concern for each other and a definition of "working" that goes beyond just "working to satisfy the husband" or "working to make a baby" and includes "working to bring joy to both", a lot of people need more information than biology blesses us with.
quote: The entire animal kingdom does not need to consult any books to figure sex out. I think the smartest species on the planet can figure it out just fine.
Here's a clinical description of the giant pandas not being able to just "figure it out" and needing some actual instruction
posted
Riiggghhttt....the only reason pandas exist is because since the time of Adam and Eve they have have designated Panda Sex Assistants. I missed that interpretation about dominion over all things. Posts: 506 | Registered: Aug 2010
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posted
I think the point is, even pandas don't just automatically know how to do it unless they've watched other pandas doing it. I guess we all need some sort of instruction, and I think books and sensitive conversations are WAY better than watching my parents. Posts: 5841 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote: I think books and sensitive conversations are WAY better than watching my parents.
I was going to make the same basic point, but your way was much funnier. Thanks for the laugh, JennaDean.
Posts: 467 | Registered: Sep 2010
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posted
RE Adam and Eve: I imagine that anyone who grows up on a farm figures out the procreation half of it pretty quickly.
Exchanging TMI with close friends can be helpful, but we're all different. If you get into your skull that your relationship with your spouse should but doesn't meet some ideal then you set yourself up for perpetual disappointment. And let's not forget that people lie.
I didn't join the church until I was 23 (married at 27). In spite of my worldly, TMI upbringing I found there are things I wish I had been told to expect. At the top of that "I wish I knew earlier" list is that things change. We are taught that "practice makes perfect," so I assumed that once the missus and I had it all figured out to our mutual satisfactions things would only get better and better. Instead I found that we periodically we would lose our "groove" and have to find a new groove all over again. Not knowing the found-lost-found cycle was normal led to a much greater amount of stress, with the unfounded belief that once that groove was lost it was gone for good.
Another item on that list is I wish I had known the importance of maintaining good overall physical fitness. As I approached and passed the big 5-0 birthday I noticed that I had taken some things for granted when I was younger. 'Nuff said about that.
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