posted
Another thread got me thinking about this, but I decided it was enough of a side-topic that it should be in a different thread.
I’m not talking about the mechanics of a blessing (i.e. how to properly give one) nor the mechanics surrounding a blessing (e.g. should everyone have a prayer first and who should say it?) but rather what the expectations are after someone calls up a priesthood holder and asks them for a blessing. My experience comes almost exclusively from one side of this (I’ve received one priesthood blessing in my life outside of being set-apart, and it was from a companion while I was on my mission) so I feel like sometimes there’s a disconnect between what’s expected and what happens.
I guess I don’t know any other way to approach this question than just say what I expect and leave it open from there.
First off, I try to set-up a time. I need to make sure I can do it and see if I should bring someone else along. If I can’t, I’ve never suggested anyone else as it strikes me as inappropriate. Rather akin to turning someone down for a date and then suggesting someone else they might like to spend time with. Apparently with this I’m already letting people down. I think on occasion I’ve asked if they’d like me to find someone else, perhaps this is a good compromise?
Once a time and place is set-up I get a feel for why there’s a need for a blessing. For starters I need to know what level of preparation is required. Every blessing is a spiritual event of course (or should be) but to be perfectly honest I will not prepare for a blessing for a headache the same way I would for someone who was just diagnosed with terminal cancer. There have been several times where I felt like the cause was rather … below what I would think would require a blessing but I have never turned anyone down for that. I suppose there are theoretical cases where I would (“I want to win the lotto, please give me a blessing”) but in general I feel like it’s not my place to judge that so I try to just respond when called. But the level of response does vary (as an example, I try to determine if I should fast before giving the blessing)
On occasion I’ve had sisters (exclusively sisters, I think there’s a good reason why) refuse to explain why they need a blessing. While I won’t press for the dirty little details I will try to convince them that it is better if they let me in on the basics. This is for me, one of the big break-downs in understanding between (some of) those who have never given blessings and those who give them. I understand that privacy is important, but if you trust me to speak for the Lord to you, I’d hope you’d trust me keep such matters private and not judge you for them (and if you don’t, maybe you should ask someone else for the blessing?) It’s hard to prepare for such a situation as you have no idea what it is to prepare for. But more to the point I think it shows a misunderstanding of how blessings work. I always feel like (in these situations) I’m expected to be psychic, a kind of Daniel to your King’s dream (who needed the interpretation for the dream he couldn’t remember). Perhaps some are in tune with the Spirit enough that it really is irrelevant if they know anything before hand, but I am not. While I do my best to ensure that the words I speak are in line with the will of God, it is a process, not a prophetic event.
All that said (and forgive the semi-soap-box experience there) I do my absolute best to keep everything private. Not just that I don’t blab about what happened afterward; I don’t tell anyone where I’m going or where I went, I don’t ask anything more than I think I need to know to perform the blessing appropriately and I do my best not to linger and impose. I basically think of myself as a tool in this scenario. I need to show-up for one specific job, but I’m not an intimate and you don’t want to have to have your employees hanging around and imposing on you before and after the job. They show-up, they get the job done, they leave. And that’s what I do. I try to be sensitive, if I think they really want me to stay there for some reason I will but not only am I bad at that kind of thing (both giving comfort and determining if someone wants me to stay and give comfort), I would honestly rather leave after giving a blessing. Even if it’s a close friend, I feel like I’m in a different role and a different mode and not 100% comfortable switching back into every-day-friend.
After that, I go and never mention it again. No follow-ups, no sly looks. Unless I learned something that would suggest they will need help (and aren’t getting it elsewhere) I basically act as if it never happened. For me it’s part of the privacy issue. They didn’t ask Hobbes to come over and say a few words, they asked an anonymous (but hopefully trustworthy) priesthood holder to speak to them for the Lord, and the fact that it was my face that showed up at their door to do it doesn’t mean there’s any connection between Hobbes and what has since happened to them. Anyway, that’s how I see it, it’s how I see service in the Church in general I guess and I know it’s not the same as others but it’s the way it is for me.
So that’s my run down, it’s how I approach the issue. But I know it’s not the way many others do and now I want to know what people expect when they ask someone for a blessing. How far apart are we?
posted
Hobbes, I think I'm on the same page with you. The priesthood holder who will be doing the blessing needs to know what to bless about, so SOME information is needed. You can't be a mind reader. Setting up a time is good, except of course in the event of an emergency as Jana relates in the other thread about David and his burst appendix. And leaving afterwards and not asking about it makes sense to me, too. As one without the priesthood, I've never really thought about it from your perspective, but it makes sense. Especially if it is a very personal/private matter, which blessings often are, I'd rather the one who gave me a blessing didn't ask about it later on. Just give it and forget about it.
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posted
It depends on the follow up, I think. When I've had blessings, I've appreciated the "How are you doing? How are things going?" from the one who provided the blessing. And I shared as much with him as I felt I needed--sometimes with details, sometimes no details. I don't think I'd appreciate "So, how are your menstrual problems now?" asked in church where others may hear.
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posted
I don't think a priesthood holder has to know anything about why someone asks them for a blessing. Clearly there is distress, and Heavenly Father already knows what the member NEEDS, even when the member thinks they need something else.
And I wouldn't think it appropriate to ever turn down a request. Mention that you are tied up until 6 (if you are) and if that isn't alright, you could call around for them if they want you to find someone. But not simply refuse or be too busy.
The order of the church is that members are supposed to be asking their dh, father, HTers, quorum leader. (Something is wrong in their world or thinking if they are going outside of those with stewardship and family ties.) All of those people have ongoing relationships where a followup to how a person is (not to the blessing) would be perfectly normal. But unless specifically prompted, I don't think followup is appropriate. The priesthood holder is the mouthpiece not the person with whom the relationship matters.
Which brings me to the last point. All of this can get fuzzy when talking about single adults, particularly young single women who sometimes think they need a blessing when what they want is attention from a priesthood holder.
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quote:Now I'm thinking I may have made a nuisance of myself in the past.
My guess is that both of us have acted in ways the people be gave blessings to haven't found ideal, everyone is different. For me, I think of it as being like something I learn in a PEC meeting: it's important that I know or knew it, but not something to broadcast, even to the person about whom the information concerns. But I don't think everyone feels that way, in fact I'm sure they don't (you for example ).
quote:It depends on the follow up, I think. When I've had blessings, I've appreciated the "How are you doing? How are things going?" from the one who provided the blessing. And I shared as much with him as I felt I needed--sometimes with details, sometimes no details. I don't think I'd appreciate "So, how are your menstrual problems now?" asked in church where others may hear.
Which makes sense. I guess at some level I feel that I'll just keep on the path I'm on, basically agreeing that everyone wants something different so it's up to me to just do what I think is right. But if people are expecting me to seek them out later (privately or otherwise) and "follow-up" (in the manner Roper suggests) then I need to readjust my views.
quote:I don't think a priesthood holder has to know anything about why someone asks them for a blessing. Clearly there is distress, and Heavenly Father already knows what the member NEEDS, even when the member thinks they need something else.
This is where I strongly disagree. It's true that the blessing is from Heavenly Father, not a magical gift based on the perceived needs of the individual. So I would agree with the idea that we shouldn't be trying to direct priesthood holders into what to say, or how to say it. That is inappropriate and overstepping out bounds. But there is a world of difference between explaining our situation ("I have the flu and it's keeping me from being there for my family") and demanding specific cures or promises. And as a priesthood holder, if you don't give me some direction as to where I'm headed I'll probably never get there.
Giving a blessing is a little like being blindfolded and trying to find a path through the woods. When you find it you can feel it under your feet: it catches you up and takes you along with it until you have no problem running along with it. Sometimes you have to go back and forth a bit before you find it and feel comfortable on it; thus the long pauses and jolts that happen a lot at the beginning of a blessing (and at the end again when you discover you've reached the end). But if you don't even know what direction to start off in, chances are you'll never find it at all and spend the whole time going back and forth looking without finding. Giving your priesthood holder some clue as to why you've asked them over is a way of pointing them to the right path, getting them going in the right direction.
When that information is with-held several things happen. First, it's a bit insulting. It is, of course an honor and a privilege to give a blessing and I'm always thankful for it; but at the same time it is also a sacrifice, sometimes a rather larger one than you might think. Refusing to give any idea what's going on hurts the connection between the two parties and send a message of distrust and ungratefulness. Second, it keeps those of us not as in tune with the Spirit as I'm sure you'd like us to be from really giving the blessing the Lord most likely wants to give, as we get caught up constantly trying to figure out what the heck it is we're supposed to be saying instead of being able to relax and just listen.
posted
My dh tells me that the way it works for him is that sometimes nothing comes in the blessing after the prayer sealing the anointing. (Of course he has to know if it is a sick blessing since those require anointing with oil and sealing the anointing, while father's blessings and blessings of comfort do not.) But other times things just flow into his mind and he says them. I want to hear the blessing Heavenly Father sends in response to my prayer and faith, not the one I want to hear or the priesthood holder thinks is appropriate. I admit this can make it difficult for people who have a hard time simply listening to the Spirit (and I'm thinking that is most of us at least some times).
And for those who think they should excuse themselves because they are unworthy, my question is how is that consistent with the recent counsel in conference that less active fathers should baptize their children and ordain them to the priesthood? (Not to mention how is it consistent with the atonement and grace?) If you rightfully hold the priesthood, then shouldn't you step up and be the conduit and use that priesthood to bless, no matter how unworthy you might deem yourself to be?
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posted
I can't see there being any problem people saying I need a blessing and annointing for health reasons. But I think that should be enough. If that's not mentioned, then the assumption is that the blessing is for other reasons. And I think that should be enough.
I've heard so many times men saying blessings almost word by word the same. Meaning as a teenager with many convert friends, at times I was present when they received blessings. So Brother X gave a blessing to friend A for this problem and then some time later same brother X gave a blessing to a friend B for an other problem and the blessings were exactly the same.
I believe that a blessing will be a blessing for me, no matter what is said. Even if the brother giving it don't get the inspiration Father is trying to give, I will be blessed with those thing Father intends, whether they are said out loud or not. So in a way it doesn't really matter what is said and what not.
Saying that, I still think that by not saying for which matter I want the blessing, I have better chances to hear what is inspired.
Of course it depends on the situation. When my mum died, it was obvious I was asking for a blessing because my mum died. If I'm going on a trip, it's obvious the blessing is for that reason. Or if I really have a crucial decision to make. Depending on the decision I may share it. But if it's something to do with something inside me, my challenges, feelings, I don't easily share them. I don't think I have any responsibility to do so.
Of course it's different now asking for a blessing from DH, I tell him more of the reasons than I would a good friend, let alone a hometeacher. But there was a time I had to ask blessings from other than my father or husband - as a YSA when my father spent a lot of time in our cottage, I had times when I just felt I needed to ask for a blessing. Usually I turned to my friends, and though sometimes it was clearly for me and I could even find a reason for it, sometimes it was needed for me to ask this particular friend to give a blessing - he was the reason, not so much me having a blessing. During that period I received perhaps 5 blessings, never said what for. And the other time was my mission. And then it was clear it was eiher for sickness or my mother's death.
I understand it would be easier for the person giving the blessing to know what for. But as the one receiving it, I trust it coming more from Father when I don't say the reason, I usually don't trust other people enough to open up my innermost feelings to them, and I don't think it's any of their business. And I'd rather they don't remember anything from the blessing either. Nor ask me later if everything is ok, when it's not about sickness. Because everything might have been ok when asking for the blessing as well.
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quote: By "following up" I don't mean asking specifically, "So, are you feeling better" (did my blessing work?) I mean offering, "If you're going to be in the hospital for a couple of days, can I take care of your pets for you?" Or maybe just showing up with my HT partner on Saturday morning and taking care of the yardwork so they have one less thing to stress about.
I was thinking of the "So, are you feeling better" (did my blessing work?) type of follow up than the offering that you mention, Roper. Often I will volunteer info to the blesser when I am feeling better. So in a sense I'm preempting their follow-up. It's the really sensitive issues that I don't want them following up on. (For instance, back before I realized that I had depression and was on medication, I would do something that wasn't very bad at all, and would emotionally beat myself up over it so terribly that I would worsten the depression into an agony of guilt and remorse. There were a couple of occasions when I got so low I couldn't take it any more and I asked for, and received, a blessing. Just hearing someone say out loud with their hands on my head that the Lord <still> loved me made all the difference in the world. In those cases, it was near to impossible for me to express to the blesser what my problem was, and I didn't want to talk about it afterward either. I hope that helps to explain my bless it and forget about it statement better.)
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posted
I have refused to give blessings before when asked. Sometimes I just didn't feel right about it. Sometimes it wasn't my job. I know there are people who feel that if I have been asked, it IS my job, but I disagree. If your husband won't bless you (for whatever reason) you don't bypass him and get a blessing from me. I'm not gonna meddle in your relationship, but you'll have to find someone else to do your dirty work.
Usually.
If I'm your home teacher, or if I get hit with a 2x4 by the spirit, I'll probably do it anyway, but don't count on that.
I have to respectfully disagree. D&C indicates that the priesthood cannot be used to bully others, to gratify your pride or ambition, or cover your sins. I can imagine a person with doubts about his own worthiness giving a blessing without doing any of those things.
Which is not to say that an adulterer can generally expect to be in tune with the Spirit when giving a blessing. There are limits. But I can imagine situations in extremis where even an adulterer might bless another, if there was a whole lot of repentance in the adulterer's heart at the time.
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posted
I'd go ahead and give the blessing. Maybe I would say something like "this is not within my stewardship, so I may not be entitled to as much inspiration as you need, but I will do as you ask, seeing as how YOU are your own steward, and you may choose the priesthood holder that you prefer to give you this blessing."
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posted
Actually, given that each person is their own steward, I think they have the right to ask any righteous priesthood holder for a blessing, and the stewardship issue then becomes a moot point.
Of course, I can't ask Rayb for my patriarchal blessing, for example. I cannot ask PinkFloyd to ordain me as a high priest, either, or to set me apart as the Elders' quorum president, for example.
But I can ask either one of those men for any personal blessing that I feel I need.
It would be unfortunate (and sad), if a female member of the church didn't feel like she wanted a blessing from her husband right now. But she is the steward of herself, and should make that determination, IMHO.
Maybe, a gentle reminder such as "have you sought out a blessing from your hometeachers?" could be given. But after the person says something akin to "I don't want them. I want you, please." I just don't see the value of pressing the point with a person in need.
It seems like (yet again) the old "stewardship dodgeball" game.
posted
Maybe if you offered, or if you suggested the blessings. Don't think so if someone asks you to. And how can anyone be totally "worthy" of exercising priesthood, when even those who hold TRs don't necessarily love God and avoid gossip or anyone of the hundred other little sins of omission that exist.
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quote: Valjean, if I know I am unworthy to give a blessing (and that's different than feeling a bit unsure) and I try to give it anyway, I am guilty of either using the priesthood to gratify my vain ambition or using the priesthood to cover my sins
If you are giving the blessing because you really want to help the person being blessed, where does vain ambition come in?
If you are frank with the person that you don't feel particularly worthy, and that any blessing you pronounce is from the Lord and not your sinful self, how is that covering your sins?
I agree that a sinful person is likely to not have these attitudes, and I agree that it is far better to be as worthy as possible as not. It might even be better for the person requesting the blessing to ask someone worthier. But maybe not.
Look, I'm not advocating the giving of blessings by folks who have done things that would call their good standing into question. There may be rare cases where that's appropriate, but they'd be pretty unusual.
I'm advocating things like letting a father who is struggling with his activity bless a wife or child who asks it of him.
And, lest there be any misunderstanding where I'm coming from, I've been in good standing in the Church since the day I joined it. I have plenty of sins to cover, but that's not my motivation for suggesting a worthiness interview is not required before we let a man bless his family or friends.
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quote: When that information is with-held several things happen. First, it's a bit insulting. It is, of course an honor and a privilege to give a blessing and I'm always thankful for it; but at the same time it is also a sacrifice, sometimes a rather larger one than you might think. Refusing to give any idea what's going on hurts the connection between the two parties and send a message of distrust and ungratefulness.
What was it president Beck said, "Good communication makes good inspiration?" Something like that. I wholeheartedly agree with what she said. That said...
It's interesting that you say if I trust you enough to give a blessing that I should trust you to know what it is about because I have the opposite feelings sort of. If I trust you to give a blessing and don't want to say why it is because I trust that you are worthy and able to receive inspiration from the Lord without know what it is about. Believe me, if I didn't trust you to be able to get inspiration then I'm not going to ask you for a blessing where I don't specify why. It would be at those times when either I am not trusting myself or most need to know the counsel is from the Lord and I'm not going to ask someone who I don't trust. But I'm different in a lot of things. Maybe this is one of them.
posted
But what about the time that I was verbally abused and frightened by one priesthood holder ( full disclosure: ostensibly worthy ward 70- he was also my former husbands brother) to the extent that I ran to my neighbor, another LDS, in complete anguish. Her hubby came in from work during this, and somehow, it ended up that he gave me a blessing.
It was probably one of the most profound and inspired blessings I ever had. He addressed private cares of my heart that he had no way of knowing except by Divine intervention. It was one of the experiences that built my testimony of the power of the priesthood in cement.
Later I found out that he was an unstable and unhappy man who wasn't very nice to his family. But in that moment, he opened himself to God and God spoke to me. I favor the idea that God uses some pretty weak vessels sometimes to get the job done. So that's my story.
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posted
My first daughter was born sick. She got sicker as the day wore on, and my BIL was the only one with us when things started looking a little scary. We asked him to help DH give her a blessing, even though he'd been inactive and likely wasn't totally worthy. He hesitated but acquiesced. At the time it felt like it was fine and I still have no regrets.
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posted
I have a question for those who feel you must know why before you will give a blessing- There are those who are counseled to not discuss what their trial is with anyone other than say the bishop and a therapist. If they are male or their husband cannot use the priesthood and they are also counseled to go through proper channels for blessings, ie family members and home teachers first before going to the bishop (as he has plenty of other responsibilities to attend to) what are they to do? Just not get a blessing at the time in their life where they probably need it the most? I totally get that knowing may help you understand what words to use to express the promptings you receive but there are times where sharing just isn't possible.
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posted
Oh and can I urge just one thing- please don't ever unless the spirit is hitting you over the head with a really strong prompting- don't ask a woman why she didn't have her husband give her a blessing. You cannot imagine how hard it is to ask in the first place knowing full well they are going to wonder why your husband isn't giving it to you- if you are questioned about why not and urged to ask him to do it, you will think twice about asking again. Usually if a woman is asking someone other than her husband it is because he is not allowed to. That is hard enough and embarrassing enough as it is. Just be honored that she trusts you enough to be the one to ask- trusting that you won't give her a hard time about her husband not being able to and trusting that you will not go around telling others her husband cannot.
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posted
I appreicate everyone responses, these kind of differences are what what I was thinking of when I posed the question.
I do feel a need to follow up on the main one under discussion here, as it's one of the few I feel strongly about, but I hope no one feels attacked by it, or that I don't appreciate the different view points shared in response to my question.
quote:My dh tells me that the way it works for him is that sometimes nothing comes in the blessing after the prayer sealing the anointing. [...] But other times things just flow into his mind and he says them. I want to hear the blessing Heavenly Father sends in response to my prayer and faith, not the one I want to hear or the priesthood holder thinks is appropriate. I admit this can make it difficult for people who have a hard time simply listening to the Spirit (and I'm thinking that is most of us at least some times).
Of course that's true, that is the goal of the blessing, or what comes after the opening part anyway. But let's pursue this further: the reason given for not explaining your reasoning here is that it would cause the PH to give a blessing diverging from the one your HF wishes to give. But that could only happen in two ways; the first is that having heard the problem he is positive he knows the solution and isn't going to listen to spiritual direction on what to actually say. If you believe this about the person in question I strongly reccomend asking someone in whom you can place greater trust to perform the blessing.
The second reason would be that you think it simply clouds their mind if they know too much, and a blank slate is better for inspiration. I suppose you could ask the individual what they prefer (assuming they don't start by asking you about it) but I have never met another PH who felt that way, and I feel strongly in the opposite. Having some idea of the problem allows me a much clearer lens through which to focus my attention and words. I do not know how it is for anyone else, nor how anyone who doesn't hold the PH percieves it, but giving a blessing is not, for me, simply repeating the words given me by Heaven. Knowing at least the vague causes that propelled you to give the blessing is incredibly helpful to understanding the revelation.
Think of it this way: would you go to the Bishop, sit down, and say "I have a problem, I need help, but I wont tell you more because it may interfer with your ability to recieve revelation"? Giving a blessing is a very similar procedure (in terms of inspiration) to giving council as a steward. It is hoped that you would trust them to be open enough to guidence, that if the Lord tells them the real problem is somewhere else they would be able to hear that no matter what you said you thought the issue was. And if they aren't, I find it highly unlikely that they would be sensitive enough to help when given no information at all.
quote:I can't see there being any problem people saying I need a blessing and annointing for health reasons. But I think that should be enough. If that's not mentioned, then the assumption is that the blessing is for other reasons. And I think that should be enough.
Enough for what? I want to be clear here, I would not turn down someone if they refused to discuss the problem with me (and this has happened and I did not turn them down). It's more a question of how effectively I was able to act as an intermediary. Which is exactly what I am, another helpful analogy to understanding why it would be important to share some details ("go to our friend in Greece, tell him I have a problem and ask for advice" is not something you'd be likely to say for example).
quote:So in a way it doesn't really matter what is said and what not.
I think it does, even if it's only the direction or comfort the words give (rather than how much spiritual blessing is actuall provided). Otherwise, why would we do it at all?
quote:It's interesting that you say if I trust you enough to give a blessing that I should trust you to know what it is about because I have the opposite feelings sort of. If I trust you to give a blessing and don't want to say why it is because I trust that you are worthy and able to receive inspiration from the Lord without know what it is about. Believe me, if I didn't trust you to be able to get inspiration then I'm not going to ask you for a blessing where I don't specify why.
This isn't an all or nothing issue. You don't have to share every detail of the problem with me. And in return, it's not a quesiton of if I get inspiration like some sort of binary switch, it's how clearly I recieve and translate. In general (to a limit of course, but in general) the more I know, the clearer I can understand and turn inspiration into words. So the issue I see isn't that if you don't share your problem I will give a 100% useless blessing. Rather it is that, apart from any personal issues of my own, the less you share, the less effective I will be for you.
quote:I have a question for those who feel you must know why before you will give a blessing- There are those who are counseled to not discuss what their trial is with anyone other than say the bishop and a therapist.
Again, it's not all or nothing, and of course I wont say 'no' if you refuse to divulge. But I would at least beenfit from generalities. Perhaps if you are having issues with spousal abuse something like: "challenges in my relationship with a loved one" or even just "challenges in dealing with others" would be enough. Some general direction is the biggest step, and even soemthing that vague would be very helpful for me in trying to understand what I'm supposed to say when the blessing starts.
posted
The stewardship issue is interesting. I've never turned anyone down whatever my relationship to them; but then I've never had more than two or three repeated requests from someone I though should probably be asking someone else for a blessing. My personal perspective is that as no keys are given to direct these blessings, there is no distinct order beyond the always present order of the family. So I don't find it at all inappropriate to ask a close friend rather than a home teacher or other Church relation. A Bishop probably has to be careful as I could certainly see them swamped with requests when others could more reasonably perform the duty. I can't imagine turning someone down on the first request due wholly to a stewardship issue... I'm not sure I'm correctly seeing the reasons put forth here for doing so.
posted
Hobbes, I'm trying to explain. To me it should be enough information for you to know if the blessing is for health reasons or for other reasons, enough information for you to receive the inspiration.
I feel very different about your comparison to talking with a bishop. I think inspiration there is and should be different.
I meant that I receive the blessing heavenly father intends to give me no matter what the person giving the blessing says. If I need comfort, I'll get the comfort whether the PH says anything comforting or not. It is my experience that that's how it works, at least for me. Receiving blessing opens the gate for heavenly Father to give me the blessings. The words are a mere beginning of a process of receiving those blessings. Blessing is not just a ritual that ends when amen is said and that's all you get. It opens a way for the Lord to work in a specific way, through the power of priesthood, regardless of what is said in the actual giving the blessing part. How I see it, the actual verbal blessing plays quite a small, though essential part in the whole big method of God giving me specific blessings to a specific situation.
Just like when asking for a blessing for sickness I don't expect to be healed the second some words are uttered. It opens the door for God to work on healing me and the healing may take some time, and then as well, it's not about what has been said, but how God sees best to work and do the healing. He'll do it His way regardless of the words.
Thus I don't think you should need any information about the situation, besides sickness or other.
I trust that the priesthood works. My not telling you is not a distrust towards you, but I just want to keep most things private. Even if I ask you a blessing doesn't mean I'm close to you, or that I need to be close to you. I don't ask the blessing from you. I ask it from God through priesthood, which you happen to posess.
Did that help understand any better?
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posted
Hobbes, at least I hope you get that some people think you are waaay out of line asking about why you are giving a blessing. Noone is asking the priesthood holder who is giving them a blessing for help in the same way they ask a bishop. That you think they do may be the root of why we don't agree.
And as I've said before, we aren't supposed to go picking the priesthood holder we think is the most righteous, or whom we think is the most trustworthy. We are suppose to call those who are in our chain of command to our Heavenly Father, (and in reality, usually we call those we know will show up).
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posted
Cook, it does help, but I think I'm still on a different page. It seems to me you're saying what words are said in the blessing have no impact either on what Heavenly Father does and does not bless you with (on this I see your point but am on the fence as to if I agree, however, let's just say it's true) and on what you could draw directly from the words themselves (comfort or direct council). Is this what you're saying, and if so, how can you account for the fact that it's a standard part of most blessings?
pnr, I was not getting that. I understood some do not wish to share but that's different from this: "you are waaay out of line asking about why you are giving a blessing". I've certainly never had that reaction when I asked (those who didn't wish to share, simply said so). I also admit a bit of hurt at reading that, rational or not. When I asked in the past it was my attempt to be as helpful as possible, not pry, and I did not do it in disregard to the feelings of those I was trying to help but rather in attempt to heal what was wrong.
I don't think we're communicating clearly here. "Noone is asking the priesthood holder who is giving them a blessing for help in the same way they ask a bishop. That you think they do may be the root of why we don't agree." I did not say that, nor do I think that. Rather I'm trying to create an understanding as to how inspiration in a blessing works for those who have not given one. The outward form the inspiration takes (and the reasons for asking that you referred to) are strikingly different when it comes to council from a leader and a blessing. Yet the inspiration process is very similar.
posted
Well, I doubt I'm the only member whose experience with gossip makes them unwilling to share much personal information (and certainly not the reason for a blessing). And of course they don't say you are out of line to your face. We are, after all, a kind and forgiving people, and try to be civil(and when we ask for a blessing, often pretty concentrated in our think and without emotional resources to address other issues).
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Hobbes, of course, when inspired words are said, they can offer comfort and counsel. It's great and that's how it should work. But it always doesn't. And when it doesn't God doesn't deny me the blessings He had intended to give me because the person giving the blessing didn't say the words. That's what I mean, when I say the words don't matter. Trying to say no need to be so worried about what you say. I also believe the words are not the end of it, but beginning.
For me it works in a way that God doesn't very specifically tell me anything in blessings any way. I know from experience it's not something that depends on the PH giving the blessing, it's how God communicates with me. I do usually get very specific inspiration about the situation directly given to me though, during the blessing.
As I see it, the words PH says don't make God do anything. Even when they are inspired. God is only letting known what he is going to do. And those things will happen even if it's not told by the PH.
And dh thinks the way inspiration worked for him as a bishop and in giving a blessing is very different.
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posted
Well we're getting bogged down in a side issue here (I think the discussion on comparison between a steward's inspiration and a PH's recieving inspiration for a blessing is much more saliant), but I would say there's a difference between not willing to share and finding someone waaay out of line for asking.
posted
Let's just say that you asking me the reason for wanting a blessing would be very intimidating and it would cause me not to be able to focus on the blessing nor the spirit. Can't say why, it just would.
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quote:Hobbes, of course, when inspired words are said, they can offer comfort and counsel. It's great and that's how it should work. But it always doesn't.
I assume you meant "doesn't always"?
quote:And when it doesn't God doesn't deny me the blessings He had intended to give me because the person giving the blessing didn't say the words.
I guess here's the source of our disagreement then. Like I said, if you mean that just because someone doesn't say: "God blesses you with healing in your finger" doesn't mean He wont. But I would say that we are missing out if the one giving the blessing "should've" said "God wishes you to extend forgiveness to your friend" but did not for whatever reason. Again, I struggle to understand what purpose the blessing serves (after the formalities have been dispensed with) if the words truely don't matter. I would personally reject the idea that the council or message that follows is just 'nice' but provides no help. Even if we viewed it as a "bonus"... well I don't know what that word would even mean in relation to a blessing.
quote:And dh thinks the way inspiration worked for him as a bishop and in giving a blessing is very different.
I'd certainly be interesting in hearing his opinion on this. I've never been a Bishop, but I have been in a position to give council and while (as I said) the mechanism by which that inspiration turns into action/words is worlds away, the process the inspiration came to me is the same. Perhaps if I explain what it's like for me to give a blessing? Feel free to skip this if you find it irrelevant.
I complete the necessary steps (decleration of authority, sealing the annointing if appropriate, etc...) and then I stop and take a deep breath. I always do this, sometimes two or three. I try to slow myself down and clear my mind so instead of focus on procedure ("make sure you address them by their full name!") or any attempts to suss out what the Lord is saying to me (my thinking just gets in the way), I instead open myself up.
For me, recieving revelation on what to say is like traversing a river. You start on the bank and need some way to get out into the current. In my case I often begin with something simply, something that expresses the emotions I feel the Lord is giving me (almost always, my blessing begin with some form of decleration of love from our Father in Heaven to the person I'm blessing). It's like slowly paddeling away from the land, feeling my way to where the current is really going. At that point I just start talking. It often begins slowly as I try to pick-up the stream God is sending me. At some point, it clicks for me and I start going. On occasion I'll trip over my words it's coming so fast! When I reach this stage everything is irrelevant: I'm in harmony with here and my own opinions or knowledge are not important except to translate (though that can sometimes be an issue). Eventually whatever I'm supposed to say dries and up and it's time to close.
The whole process may take 10 seconds in some cases or several minutes. What I worry about, what I'm talking about here, is putting myself in a position where I never hit that current: where I never fully click. This can happen because I didn't prepare correctly (a very sad thing for which I hope to not be culpable), because they did not or the Lord has some other reason to withhold, or because I start so far away I can never seem to make it that far out no matter how much I flounder around looking).
quote:Let's just say that you asking me the reason for wanting a blessing would be very intimidating and it would cause me not to be able to focus on the blessing nor the spirit. Can't say why, it just would.
I find this interesting; do you often recieve blessing from someone who does not know (to some extent) why? Would it matter how the person asked you? Finally, I guess I struggle to see this: if you find what happens durring the blessing to be irrelevant outside the fact that the formailities are adheared to, why does it matter if you can focus on it?
posted
I've never thought about why I knew that. Maybe it was Pres. Faust's talk about someone asking him had him telling them that he has no more priesthood power than their father or HTer? Or maybe it was Pres Monson (?) who asked the inactive dad to do it. My sense is that I've heard this call for not seeking after the "righteous" on more than one ocaasion, but a cursory review doesn't find it in writing.
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posted
Hobbes I can see we don't see eye to eye on this matter. And sorry for wrong word order, being a non English speaker it happens. But you got the point. How I see it, like I tried to explain, the blessing is opening up the way for the God to work in a spesicif way, which involves the priesthood. Many people don't necessarily see how something that happens a week from the blessing that helps the situation has anything to do with the blessing. Most people want asnwers, comforting, what ever right now. The blessing is a way to give that, and it's great when it happens. But I'm just saying it's not all. It would be great if everything would work perfectly. If men would be perfect in giving the blessings. But I know they are not. I know there are great men who are inspired, but doesn't necessarily find the ways to express the inspiration. Or for example foreign missionaries who give blessings, and say the funniest things which can be understood in a way that most likely is inspiration and also in a way that means something the Lord certainly would not inspire to say- thinking your way the inspiration should some how give them the gift of tongues that they'd say all perfectly correct, since it's the words that matter.
I usually don't ever say why I want the blessing. I say it when I need it for sickness (which usually is also obvious) or for travelling (which usually dh or previosly my dad knew) or for some event that is going to happen and I'm worried about it. If it's any kind of distress or anything to do with me and my development on a personal level, I don't say why, just say to my husband would you give me a blessing. I do trust him, I discuss matters with him, but there I don't want to open up.
I don't think it would be very different which way it would be asked why I want a blessing. I'm totally fine the person to be concerned about me, asking questions such as are you ok or is there anything I can do for you. But that way I feel the question is about me and my wellfare. When asked about the reason for asking a blessing, I feel the question is about the person asking the question.
I'm not saying that council given in a blessing is just nice and doesn't help. If it is inspired, of course it helps. I'm only saying that if for some reason the PH does not give that advice, the same help will come to the person some other way because the way for God to give it has been opened. If the words are heard during the blessing, it's great. It speeds up the process. It makes it very much easier for the person to see the help and accept it. But if the words are missing, God will find a way to give the help.
I'm not saying what happens in the blessing is irrelevant. When done by inspiration, it's a great blessing for both the one giving and the one receiving the blessing. When I ask for a blessing, of course I assume the person giving it will be inspired. I will expect the Spirit to touch me and either testify that the words I hear are indeed from God or inspire me with something during the blessing. So I want to be in tune with the Spirit my self. If I'm intimidated I can't focus on the Spirit but start thinking about why you asked me the question, what do you think of me now, will you actually be inspired when you had to ask etc...
I believe each of you PH receive the inspiration differently. For DH it can be very different in different blessings. I hear sometimes it's vague feelings of the direction which become stronger during the blessing, which may be similar to your experince. Sometimes it's very distinct feelings about what matters to discuss in the blessing, straight from the beginning. Sometimes it's opening your mouth to say something and you hear yourself saying something totally different. Sometimes it's sentences coming to mind or hearing them very clearly and it can be the very first sentence, some in the middle of the blessing, just some during the blessing or every single sentence that it said in the blessing.
DH says that as a bishop (ok, you can say that the process still is somewhat same because the Spirit tends to work the same way) it was more this way. A person comes to you and tells what's up. You discuss the matter to help you clarify what exactly is the issue, have you understood correctly. Once you think you've understood, you think about the church doctrine and if needed procedures concerning the matter. You discuss that, and the spirit may guide you to specific scriptures if you don't remember them. While discussing the spirit helps you understand what is the core issue, because often the people don't even know it themselves. You get a prompting to say like "have to thought that it may not be about XX, which you think, but it might actually be about YY." You get a prompting - and it can vary, the way you get it, to ask them do something. Or you ask them to do something that is part of the procedure. Or you get a prompting to do something yourself.
Perhaps one experience has made me think the way I do with some other experiences. When my mother died during mission I asked a blessing from an Elder. I didn't care which one gave it. I told my mum had died, but I didn't say I wanted a blessing for comfort or for strenght or anything, because I didn't really know why I felt like having a blessing.
The Elder gave a blessing. I can't recall what was said. After some words I kind of was taken aback because I was certain he, an American, was speaking Finnish. After a while I realized it was not Finnish, I don't know what language it was, but I perfectly understood it all. At some point it turned back to English and the blessing was ended. I couldn't recall after the blessing what had been said in the unknown language. But I knew and felt it had been exactly what I had needed. I asked the two Elders and my companion about the language and what had happened. They were puzzled. They had all heard only English. Perhaps that's why I think the words don't matter so much.
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posted
Cook, thank-you for sharing that. I believe we're closer than you think here, a lot of the differences seem to be communication issues which I'll do my best to clear up.
quote:...thinking your way the inspiration should some how give them the gift of tongues that they'd say all perfectly correct, since it's the words that matter.
My questions on this matter haven't been an attempt to declare my opinion on what is and is not important, rather just find out where you're coming from. Perhaps if I try to explain why I think there's an important distinction between not thinking what happens matters at all, and thinking there's some importance tied to it.
The first belief would be that the PH, having copmleted the important steps could then spend 5 minutes talking about the future of space exploration and, aside from wasting your time, have exactly the samy spiritual, emotional and mental impact on your life as giving direct council from God. Presumably, the equality would come because the Spirit would inspire exactly the same thoughts and reactions in you, as well as healing, no matter what words came out.
The second beleif could be very slight. Perhaps it's only 'nice' to hear certain things in a blessing, or just makes it a little easier to understand direction from the Lord. Or perhaps it makes a huge difference: the scale is not relevant. Just that it matters a tiny bit, just a sidge of help that the words are inspired.
The reason I think the difference between those two beliefs is important is that, even if you just think it provides a minute level of assistance if the PH is inspired in their blessing, it's two totally different discussions as to why you don't want to share anything with the PH in question. Reading through your posts I'm convinced you don't believe the first thing. The confusion seems to be that you've got the impression that I think what is said is all important, or the dominating concern. This is not true, nor does it have to be to switch the discussion.
If you honestly believe that a blessing in which there's no inspiration is no different from one in which the PH is inspired then we really are on totally different pages here. But if you think there's some benefit derived from an inspired blessing then the discussion is more along the lines of: "is the benefit you derive from having an inspired blessing, however slight, worth sharing information to recieve?" And the answer for you could absolutley be "no, it's not." And that's perfectly reasonable as you feel that mostly what you want is the laying on of hands, and that discussing on even the most superficial level ("I'm struggling on an issue of personal progress") would be more destructive than the marginal help you would recieve from anything that comes after.
Do you see the difference? I haven't been trying to put words in your mouth, or advocate for a specific understanding of how a blessing works. Rather I've been trying (though not very clearly I guess) to understand which of those two discussions we're having.
quote:I usually don't ever say why I want the blessing. I say it when I need it for sickness (which usually is also obvious) or for travelling (which usually dh or previosly my dad knew) or for some event that is going to happen and I'm worried about it. If it's any kind of distress or anything to do with me and my development on a personal level, I don't say why, just say to my husband would you give me a blessing. I do trust him, I discuss matters with him, but there I don't want to open up.
I don't think it would be very different which way it would be asked why I want a blessing. I'm totally fine the person to be concerned about me, asking questions such as are you ok or is there anything I can do for you. But that way I feel the question is about me and my wellfare. When asked about the reason for asking a blessing, I feel the question is about the person asking the question.
Here's where I think there's also some confusion. I'm coming to this discussion as someone who exclusively gives blessings to those within YSA wards. From my view, it seems others are coming to it from the perspective of those who recieve blessing almost always (especially for such personal and private issues) from close friends or family. I hope you understand why the two are so different. When someone asks me to give a blessing I may not know them more than a name and a few basic facts ("works at foot locker, brown hair, made a comment about liking dogs in class"). They might be asking for a blessing because of chronic pain in their hand, because their boyfriend broke up with them, because they are trying to overcome pride, because there's been a death in the family. Many aren't quite sure how a blessing works (even if they have recieved blessing from their fathers) and so for me giving a blessing isn't just about inspiration and format, it's also about trying to walk them through the process and help them understand what's going to happen (and maybe give a few pointers about how to get the most out of it if appropriate). On the surface I need to ask just to see if there needs to be an annointing (as many YSAs don't realize there's a difference, or understand when one is applicable over the other).
In the case of, for you, a husband giving a blessing all this goes out the window. He may not know exactly why your asking but he knows you very well, and he knows in terms as specific as I've every felt necessary what it is. Knowing you personally is the biggest help, but he also knows it's not a physical problem, that no one in your family died (or knows that they did as the case may be), he knows what you do and don't care about, how you relate to the Lord, etc...
Do you understand why I think there's a difference?
quote:...will you actually be inspired when you had to ask
No other PH here has chimed in, so perhaps I am alone in this here; but for me, and for every single person I've spoken to IRL, this is not how inspiration works for me. First off, I rarely recieve revelation before the blessing begins (maybe revelation about how to conduct myself, or something else related to preliminaries, but nothing about what to say or what the issue is). Again, perhaps for others here it's not at all helpful to understand anything, all I can say is that for someone as weak as I am, I struggle to get inspiration when I know almost nothing about the person, and nothing about the cause.
quote: Again, perhaps for others here it's not at all helpful to understand anything, all I can say is that for someone as weak as I am, I struggle to get inspiration when I know almost nothing about the person, and nothing about the cause.
Me too.
I work in wireless communications, so I sometimes look at revelation from a "professional" standpoint. I am not great at yes/no questions, but I have a lot more success with those than with, say, receiving full blown revelations. I suspect that that is because answers to yes/no questions require much less information- much less "bandwidth", if you will- than full blown revelations. It is thus easier for the priesthood bearer if he can seek revelation on something specific.
My personal experience with blessings is that it is a little like trying to follow a vein of gold. I search for the right words/ideas/images in my mind and find the ones that feel right, that the Spirit confirms to me. I then say those words/ideas/images as best I can (sometimes well, sometimes not, but I at least get the gist of it). I then continue in that "direction" and search for more words/ideas/images that feel right. Repeat said process until it feels like the vein has been quarried out.
The reason I explain this is that I think that the process is easier if I have an initial area to search in. I hope this makes sense.
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But Hobbes, I think you are in a way putting words in my mouth. Perhaps it's a language issue, but you stating what I've said isn't quite what I've meant. But lets leave it to that. All I've said implies to those times when I've received blessings from randomly asked friends/ priesthood holders.
I understand knowing about situation would be helpful. I'm just saying it shouldn't be necessary for you. And if someone comes to ask for a blessing, I think your stewardship is to only give the blessing, nothing else.
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Jim, that's a good description for how it works for me as well. Though I wouldn't have thought to put it in prospector terms.
Cook, I apologize, I've been trying to explain what I think you're saying so you can correct my mis-understandings, not try to paint you into a corner.
quote:I understand knowing about situation would be helpful. I'm just saying it shouldn't be necessary for you. And if someone comes to ask for a blessing, I think your stewardship is to only give the blessing, nothing else.
It's really clarifying this statement that started our discussion and I'm afraid I'm still very confused as to what you mean by it. Necessary for me to do what? As I said, I'll certainly give a blessing to someone who wont tell me a thing about themselves if they ask me too, and I'll do my best to be guided by the Spirit. So in that sense it's not necessary, and clearly, outside of asking for their full name, I can give them a blessing that meets all the strict requirments of form without any further knowledge.
What do you mean by the stewardship comment? That asking questions is a matter of stewardship?
posted
Hobbes, I feel you're saying that for you to reach the point that you really feel inspired to say what God's wants you to say, it is necessary that you know something about the matter, because otherwise you may not reach that point. That without that information it's just about the form. My misunderstanding probably. To that I'm saying it shouldn't be necessary. I believe a PH should be able to get that inspiration without the information.
The stewardship thing - what I mean, that when a PH gives a blessing he should not feel any responsibility to the person he has given the blessing besides the blessing itself. If it's given by a friend, then you have responsibilities towards the person as a friend. But giving a blessing doesn't automatically make you in any way part of the person's life. Sure, you're a tool in God's hands in that particular moment, but I think that's that, unless the person would like to have something more from you.
I'm only trying to say, from the perspective of the person receiving the blessing, that even though how well PH is inspired means very much to the person giving the blessing, God wont deny me as the receiver blessing due to PH's imperfections. I think your point of view may be one that causes people to ask for multiple blessings on the same matter. Instead of believing that the one blessing they received will bless them even if they didn't feel the person giving was inspired, because he didn't mention the specific problem they were seeking help for, they go from one PH to another asking a blessing for the same matter in hopes of finding one PH who truly is inspired. (Not saying that at times you may need multiple blessings for the same matter.
I do believe it's about the priesthood power and opening a way for God to do something He otherwise couldn't. Why else do we have blessings by the power of the priesthood instead of having just someone say an inspired prayer on our behalf? Did I make myself any more clearer?
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quote: I've never thought about why I knew that. Maybe it was Pres. Faust's talk about someone asking him had him telling them that he has no more priesthood power than their father or HTer? Or maybe it was Pres Monson (?) who asked the inactive dad to do it.
Then perhaps it's an implication you found truth in. I was wondering if it had something to do with Packer's talk about there's an order for everything.
In an ideal world home teachers would come every month and home teachers would get along with their families. In an ideal world we could always call on anyone.
But, this isn't an ideal world. And even if the difficulty is just a personality conflict, that could create difficulties in feeling the spirit. In the temple, what are the admonitions for joining the prayer circle? If such conditions are guarded for in the temple then isn't the possibility of the same difficulty happening outside the temple even greater?
Perhaps, the wording pick the most righteous person to give the blessing isn't conveying the the intended meaning. Perhaps, a better choice would be pick the person who will be most conducive to the spirit at the moment. That is what were seeking when we say pick the most righteous person, isn't it? We want someone who will say what God would have them say, at that moment.
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