posted
My ward's RS President is driving me crazy. No matter what class she is in she makes comments --- LOTS of comments!! Last Sunday she talked for 6-7 minutes in testimony meeting. She came to the gospel principles class that I teach and made a couple of comments. The only reason she didn't make more is because I kind of turned my back to her and tried to ignore her raised hand. NEXT, she taught the lesson in Relief Society. When she is there, she can't just make one comment -- her comments are continual -- no matter who is teaching. One sunday when the Stake RS President came to our ward to give the lesson this lady kept raising her hand and commenting to the point that I really felt sorry for the teacher. She had come all the way across town to teach and was totally dominated by this woman.
One sunday after my class I talked to her about giving everyone a chance to comment and she insisted that she "felt the spirit" and had to share. I talked to the bishop about her. He acknowledged that others had complained and he knew it was a problem. Shortly after our conversation they released him and we got a new bishop. I talked to HIM about the problem and he also said he knew it was a problem.
I know I am not the only one who is disturbed. My husband, who is a nonmember but comes to Sacrament meeting with me, says he will never come to my gospel principles class as long as she is there commenting. I told the bishop this. I play the piano in RS because there is literally no one else in the ward who can play. I just can't take her anymore. I dread RS and I know I'm not the only one. Last week in RS there were LOTS of empty seats.
It seems no one is willing to do anything about the situation. If I stop going to RS everyone will notice because the sisters will be singing acapella. YIKES -- Thanks for listening to my rant!
Posts: 61 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Maybe this RSP is really desperate to get people to live the gospel. Maybe she is hanging on to testimony by a thread and feels very much alone. Have you ever asked Heavenly Father is He really is inspiring her and if not, then could He shut her mouth or help you not to become upset?
Why don't you just try loving her. You can analyze the topics which she speaks on and see if you have room for improvement. Maybe you can take her food, or helps others to do their VTing. Maybe she is there for the sole purpose of giving you an opportunity to love and accept the intolerable.
As for your GP class, it would be perfectly alright to ask her not to come to your class again because you are supposed to teach just the manual and her comments expand on that inappropriately and are too frequent. Or simply because for some unknown reason your non-member dh doesn't feel comfortable attending when she is there, and since the GP is for new people, you hope she will excuse herself and not take offense, however unreasonable your dh's feelings might be.
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posted
roper's related solution is pretty good. You talk to them, explain the situation, explain what you're going to do and then do it. I mean, if you say "so, after 2 comments, I'm going to not call on you, even if your hand is raised, to give others a chance", she can't really argue with you, because you can just not call on her. You don't have to feel the social pressure to call on her, because you've already explained to her, in private, that she won't be called on.
The other meetings, that you are not in charge of, yeah, I got nothing for you. Sorry.
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posted
She had another stellar day. SHE talked for 9 - 10 minutes during testimony meeting. THEN, she made 4-5 comments in gospel essentials class. THEN, in RS she had to clarify about half the announcements. Once the lesson started and she made her second comment I couldn't take it -- I had to leave.
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posted
brando: I am sorry. That can be really frustrating. I feel for you that your church meetings weren't what you hoped.
I have a similar problem. One of our yw leaders talks...a lot...when we have combined lessons. I think it stems from her not wanting the teacher to sit there in silence, but as a teacher you expect a certain amount of having to wait while the class warms up. Especially with teenagers.
I am really struggling because I love this leader and she isn't trying to be obnoxious, she just likes to talk about things and she gets excited to share stories and such.
I have ZERO idea of how to approach this without hurting her terribly. But the girls need to talk. They need to be interactive and participatory. (is that a word?)
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posted
There are ways to talk about anything. But it takes communication skills that don't come naturally (in fact we're wired instinctively to experience the opposite). Here's a link to some really good material.
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posted
I'm sorry for the trouble, but just have to comment, that I don't think 4-5 comments in Sunday school is excessive. (unless she offers them without teacher's permission). I think most of the time I share at least 4-5 comments in Sunday school. So do the others who generally comment. You only have those few who do raise their hands, so it ends up having them speak more. Of course if the teachers has more to choose from, it's wise to do so. But pretty much what ever the question is I raise my hand (the teacher is my friend), unless I see there's plenty of raised hands already. Then it's the teacher who can pick and choose. I've also told I can be asked even if I don't raise my hand, and that happens occasionally too.
We have one of those men who really like to talk. It used to be rambling on and on and on about not really the topic or actually saying the same thing someone previously said. He was always eager to talk. Sometimes without permission. For the last two or so years he's been very good. He still raises his hand most of the time and probably shares that at least 4-5 comments a lesson, but now it's on topic and though a little bit rambling, he doesn't talk so long anymore. Some leadership had a discussion with him and it helped. And you can also see a difference in attitude. It's changed from "Oh no, here he goes again" to "that was actually pretty good and he's spot on". I like that change. I think his efforts have been rewarded and thus he keeps doing better all the time.
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posted
You are probably right -- 4-5 comments isn't too many. BUT, when you add that to the ten minutes she took in sacrament meeting and interupting the person conducting RS to clarify all the announcements and then 4-5 comments in RS it just drives me nuts. BTW - we have a fairly big ward. Not Utah big -- but regular mission field big.
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quote:I'm sorry for the trouble, but just have to comment, that I don't think 4-5 comments in Sunday school is excessive. (unless she offers them without teacher's permission). I think most of the time I share at least 4-5 comments in Sunday school. So do the others who generally comment. You only have those few who do raise their hands, so it ends up having them speak more. Of course if the teachers has more to choose from, it's wise to do so. But pretty much what ever the question is I raise my hand (the teacher is my friend), unless I see there's plenty of raised hands already.
See, this is very interesting to me. You say that you always raise your hand, every question, and that there are only a few who generally comment. Why do you think that is?
I guarantee you there are a number of people in each class who have meaningful, insightful comments to share, but don't ever raise their hands because they feel like "why bother?" They know that the Ol' Stand-bys will raise their hands every question, whether the Ol' Standbys have something meaningful or insightful to share or not, so there is no point in raising their hand for the one question where they do have something insightful to share.
To put it another way, it's classic selection bias to believe that only those who raise their hands every time want to share. Granted, it's the teacher's job to make sure that the class doesn't devolve into a conversation between the teacher and his coterie, with the rest of the class merely looking on, but that doesn't mean the members of the coterie can't be a little more self-aware about their own behavior.
I realize that sounds harsh, but I guess at root of my feelings is the belief (which has been buttressed by experience) that people who have a comment to make for EVERY SINGLE QUESTION do not take the time to evaluate whether their comments are meaningful or helpful.
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posted
I personally believe that if you want different people to give comments in class, you need to call out different people and stop asking for any random comments.
I think teachers often leave the class discussion too open for constructive comments. It takes effort to understand your audience. You can't just assume that someone annoying is doing so because of nefarious reasons either. It's so easy to judge them, but I suspect most of them comment because they feel something. Often we feel before we understand. We need time to think and feel.
I've been in classes where NO ONE makes a comment... that's when I started to explore the idea that I could ask the class members specifically to answer questions. It works wonders with classes full of teens.
The trick is to prime them. Tell them ahead of time, that you want them to think about a subject or answer. Then present a part of the lesson. Then ask them by name.
It can be done quickly if you have a trust relationship with those you call on... but if you only know part of the class, that causes problems (can give the clique feel if you only call on your friends... so you really have to be careful). You really need to know everyone in your class.
And that's the big reason why teachers don't do it in Gospel Doctrine or RS/Priesthood, because teachers don't know everyone in the class well enough to call on them. (It's easier to do in a smaller class)
Even better is if you can contact them and prepare prior to the lesson.
All of these problems, even the loquacious speakers can be controlled, if we take more initiative than to walk into class on Sunday and hope things change. But in general it takes preparation.
quote: I started to explore the idea that I could ask the class members specifically to answer questions. It works wonders with classes full of teens.
This is what I do.
quote: It can be done quickly if you have a trust relationship with those you call on... but if you only know part of the class, that causes problems (can give the clique feel if you only call on your friends... so you really have to be careful). You really need to know everyone in your class.
I agree with this. It helps to make it more conversational, i.e. "Kallie, what do you think about that? Does that sound like X, Y, Z to you?"
Also, with teenagers, mirroring back is critical. Both to help them clarify their thoughts, and to correct any misconceptions that may arise from their comments.
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posted
As a class member, I would hate this. If I am put on the spot, my mind freezes and I'd go away feeling like an idiot. If I want to answer a question, I'd raise my hand. I don't think I am alone in thinking this.
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posted
Palmon: I agree that some people are like that, and that goes along with knowing your class.
There are girls who I don't call on for just the reasons you mentioned. I know them, so I know what I should or should not do.
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And no, we're not even on the same continent. And most of the time I've been on the teaching side so I have a pretty good idea how hands are raised in this ward.
I didn't say I'm the first one to raise my hand. Often I raise my hand when I see the look on the teacher's face "please someone raise your hand and answer my question". Sometimes I raise my hand because I really feel I have something important to add to the discussions. That and the teacher occasionally asking me without raising my hand adds up to "raising my hand all the time and answering 4-5 times a lesson". Of course I don't raise my hand to every single question - I usually skip those "what word can we find in this scripture that describes..." unless no one else is answering and I see the look on the teacher's face. And occasionally I'm out of the classroom with my child or helping out with someone else's child or busy with something else or my mind is occupied with something else. But my point was I'm always ready to answer and participate and that ends up 4-5 times speaking in a lesson. If I see the discussion flows and there are plenty of hands raised I wont raise mine unless I really feel I have something important to add no one else is about to say...
Our teachers are pretty good at teaching by questions. You'll have many of them to answer. I don't think (and of course you can argue otherwise) anyone feels I'm always talking. We have plenty of those who may share that 4-5 answers a discussion (and it's not necessarily the same people every Sunday nor me every Sunday) and I've never felt it's too much.
And in our culture - it's even been studied - if there are no raised hands, no one will raise hands if they have tiniest bit of hard time with it if there's one or two hands raised, they're more likely to do it themselves, but even then it's hard. The more hands raised, the easier and more likely that you'll raise your hand it gets. Of course it's been studied in a school setting, not at church.
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quote: You can't just assume that someone annoying is doing so because of nefarious reasons either.
So I'm clear, I'm not assuming this at all. Truthfully, I don't really care why someone is dominating a class—I think it's a bad thing whether they are doing it out of the best OR out of the worst intentions. I guess it matters in the sense that, if it's out of good intentions, you can speak to them and they'll behave as cook does, by examining their own participation to make sure it's helpful and appropriate.
I apologize, cook, if I was thrown off by the colloquial use of the phrase "always raising my hand". And I agree with you, if nobody ever raises their hand, that can also stifle shy people's urges to offer answers. It sure seems that a good percentage of us have been in that class where the same 3 or 4 people talk the whole hour.
And may I offer an observation with all love—I think it's great that you are concerned for your friend, the teacher, and again, you know the particular facts of that class and I just know what you've shared. But when a teacher asks a question to a class, and is not immediately greeted with a chorus of hands with answers, I don't view that as a situation where the teacher needs to be "rescued". Silence is not a bad thing, even extended silence. If a teacher asks a question to a group of adults and there are 20 seconds of silence, so what? Maybe in the stillness, people will gain some clarity, maybe they'll hear a whispering.
I've said this before; this could well be just my own personal peeve, and not applicable to any other Mormon human. But I have had many an instance where a teacher asked a question and I've barely had time to think to myself, "you know, that's interesting, I wonder if there's a conne--" and then I'm ripped out of it because someone else is already talking, telling us about how their trip to Holy Land applies. It's a little bit like trying to teach my Webelos anything. Sometimes they don't think, and they don't learn, because they are sure they already know the answer. Search, ponder and pray. It ain't just for primary.
You know, that might make a good T-shirt slogan.
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quote: I don't view that as a situation where the teacher needs to be "rescued". Silence is not a bad thing, even extended silence. If a teacher asks a question to a group of adults and there are 20 seconds of silence, so what? Maybe in the stillness, people will gain some clarity, maybe they'll hear a whispering.
Sometimes when I am teaching I will ask the first question and let everyone know that I am going to give them _______ time to think about the question. people get so uncomfortable with sitting there silent, but this gave them permission to do so and I found the comfort level went up and the answers were more thought out.
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posted
(apologies for the many offtopic points... but I love this topic in general)
I find I'm most silent when the question asked is rhetorical commonsense, and the answer is obvious and commonplace (like when the most obvious question is "Keep the Commandments"), but the teacher still requires people to answer it... that drives me up a wall.
Then the teacher badgers the audience because they're not giving them the exact answer they're looking for... if one at all... Annoying... Posts: 13016 | Registered: Oct 98
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quote: Then the teacher badgers the audience because they're not giving them the exact answer they're looking for
A few years ago our Gospel Doctrine teacher used to ask a lot of no-brainer yes/no questions, (example: Laman and Lemuel are beating up Nephi, is this a good choice?) and if nobody answered she'd 'playfully' nod or shake her head to indicate that we were all supposed to do the same. And then wait for us to actually do it. It was ....(fill in your favorite horrible word)
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posted
I will say that there's no realy substitute for experience. I always thought I had some skill as a teacher, but looking back, it's amazing how much I've improved in just the 2 or 3 years (through 3 wards, I guess I'm a bit volatile) I've been called as an instructor. So many people are terrified even to stand up there that it really is all they can do to read the lesson questions straight out, or fall-back on cliches. And I don't blame them even if it doesn't exactly make me love the lesson. Though in general I spend a lot more time thinking about it, these days my time spent preparing a lesson in terms of actually putting pen to paper is somewhere around half the length of my actual lesson. That simply wasn't the case when I started. It's so much easier now that I have a feel for what kind of questions actually get people to think without actually being unanswerable; how long each scripture and question last and thus how many I should prepare for a given lesson. Even becoming aware of how much time you actually have for Sunday School (as a hint: it's almost never the 40 minutes scheduled in for it) is something that takes some time to really internalize.
I know for a time there were a lot of teacher development classes going around. It's still a thing, but a thing I only see rarely. I can understand why it might not be kept up; someone has to be designated a master teacher first, and they have to not only be really good at teaching, they have to know why they're good. Then, their style might be totally different, and incompatible with someone else's style and thus the experience and tips wont translate. Yet for all that, I think many instructors could use instruction. We get so little training and direction as teachers. As mentioned above, just in the last 2-3 years I've been called three times and the most direction I've recieved is what they want me to teach the following week.
Right now I teach Gospel Doctrine (my favorite calling ever, fyi ) every other week. Our ward split about half between GD and Gospel Essentials (with a few filtering off into side classes like mission or temple prep). That means that I constitute, by myself, around 1/6th of the total time at Church, and 1/4th of the lesson-based instruction. Though the numbers get a little more dilluted in a family ward with the children and callings to lead the children, it's hardly atypical (and I've found it much more common in a family ward for there to be just one GD instructor). The entire Bishopric's average time directly leading/instructing the ward is far beneath mine. What am I actually teaching them and how effectively am I doing it? I don't know the answer to that but I hope my Bishopric, as well as all the others though out the Church do, and are taking the appropriate steps to ensure that they're satisfied with the answer.
posted
Hobbes, those are some excellent points. It makes me wonder how many of us think that, when we are called to teach, that we are already sufficient in knowledge and skill that we can just "show up" and teach and have it be effective. I remember once when a speaker began his talk by saying "I didn't really have time to prepare anything, so I hope you'll bear with me." And yes, it was exactly as bad as you'd expect. If prayer is work, and the saving of the souls of men is Heavenly Father's work (and glory), why do we think it's cool if we don't do any work to prepare talks and lessons? Which are, as Hobbes astutely points out, some of the only instruction time we get each week.
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quote:And then the teacher quickly moves on so s/he can "cover all the material."
Covering all the material is not necessary or even desirable. The "Teaching No Greater Call" manual encourages teachers to prayerfully consider the needs of their class members and then select those few principles from the lesson which will be of most benefit to the class.
That concept has been one of the best tips I've ever heard. I remember sitting in a teacher class a couple of years ago when the teacher mentioned that. No where is it written that we need to get through all the material or points. In fact if the Spirit teaches us to do so then the entire time can be spent on just one simple point.
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quote:I remember once when a speaker began his talk by saying "I didn't really have time to prepare anything, so I hope you'll bear with me."
What I've heard, more than once I'm sure, is "I didn't have time to prepare so I'm just going to go by the Spirit," as if the Spirit is a euphemism for "Winging it because I'm too lazy to do the work."
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posted
Two or three experiences stand out for me. I pray about my classes and was substituting as the adult SS teacher. I got to church, took sacrament and came back home because I finally had something click in my brain. I put together a shield because I was teaching the whole armor of God.
I gave a talk with minimal notes at a baptism that I will never forget and yes it was a talk led by the Spirit. Not because I was lazy but because I seriously didn't receive the inspiration 'til really close to the day of the baptism. However, Heavenly Father does have a sense of humor. The Mission President chose that baptism to be present at. That was a "I can't believe this is happening to me!" moment. I know it was one of the best talks I have ever given.
Teaching the 9 year olds, dh and I work on picking what is important by careful prayer and preparation. Also, there is a very useful website that I use when I am stuck. V.
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quote:What I've heard, more than once I'm sure, is "I didn't have time to prepare so I'm just going to go by the Spirit," as if the Spirit is a euphemism for "Winging it because I'm too lazy to do the work."
Yeah, I've heard that more than a few times, too. Usually, those talks end up being a rambling incoherent mess.
And when I give a talk after those people, I end up getting lots and lots of compliments. Because I'm anal and actually write a talk. That's logical and makes sense.
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posted
In a Sunday School class we were talking about being the best you can. I raised my hand and brought up the idea that it's normal for people to think about being the best teacher, or the best leader, or the best performer, or the best home teacher we can. But we seldom think about how to be the best follower, or the best class member, or the best audience member, or the best home teaching family that we can. And yet there are so many more of those opportunities, maybe we should think about it.
What are some ways we could be the best class member possible? Read the lesson beforehand, so we know what we're talking about. Don't make too many or too long comments and monopolize the class. Don't make too few comments. (This will depend an awful lot on how big the class is.) Make sure the comments we make are relevant, appropriate, and uplifting. Laugh at the corny little jokes the teacher tells. At this point, the class all laughed and thought I was making a joke, and my comment was basically over, but I was serious! It is important to give feedback, and if nobody laughs, or laughs too loudly, it changes the dynamic in the class.
There are also some issues we didn't bring up, that are still important. Like how do you deal with comments that are "false doctrine"? What do you do if you're in a class talking about prospering in the land and a class member makes a comment that as long as you pay a full tithing, you'll never be laid off? Do you raise your hand and say, "I disagree. I have personally experienced that in my life. I paid a full tithing and was laid off."? Or do you let it go, because it's not your job--you aren't the teacher? I have been in classes where people got up and walked out because they couldn't stand the comments that other class members were making. As a class member, should you bring up controversial issues or not?
Sometimes, at the beginning of a meeting or when my home teachers come over, I sit and think for a little while and make a plan for how to be the best I can during that meeting. In Sunday School, I would read the lesson beforehand, and think about several comments I could make, and pick the two that I thought might have the best possibilities of making the class better. Then I would wait until the teacher got to those concepts to raise my hand. It didn't always work. Sometimes, the class was so dead, I would make other comments earlier in an attempt to pick things up. Sometimes, someone else would beat me to it, and steal MY comments. (Grrr. j/k) Sometime, we never even got that far, or skipped those particular concepts. So there was some give and take with it. But it helped me to be a better class member, and it helped me to actually help make the classes better for the teacher and the other class members as well.
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) every other week. Our ward split about half between GD and Gospel Essentials (with a few filtering off into side classes like mission or temple prep). That means that I constitute, by myself, around 1/6th of the total time at Church, and 1/4th of the lesson-based instruction. Though the numbers get a little more dilluted in a family ward with the children and callings to lead the children, it's hardly atypical (and I've found it much more common in a family ward for there to be just one GD instructor). The entire Bishopric's average time directly leading/instructing the ward is far beneath mine. What am I actually teaching them and how effectively am I doing it? I don't know the answer to that but I hope my Bishopric, as well as all the others though out the Church do, and are taking the appropriate steps to ensure that they're satisfied with the answer.![[Big laugh]](graemlins/biglaugh.gif)
Novel idea.
