posted
So keeping the Sabbath day holy is a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately (as in, the last several months). Avoiding a long and boring story let’s just say that I was not raised in the Church (or any church) and I feel that has had an impact on my understanding and observance of the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day is a big topic and if this thread lasts long I imagine we’ll spread out into the whole deal; but there’s one aspect I wanted to approach the topic from.
In meetings from Sunday School, to Sacrament, to General Conference I hear stories about forgoing activities on Sundays. Not just day-today activities (“we don’t let the children play soccer with the neighbor’s kids on Sunday”) but big, important activities (“it was the state championship and…” “I was in an international musical competition in Bavaria when…”). Our ward had just such a talk last Sunday, a young man told of a time he was scheduled for the last game of some competition (I don’t recall the sport) but since it was on a Sunday: he told the team he couldn’t make it.
I certainly salute such commitment, but I don’t understand the principle behind it. Oh, I understand keeping the Sabbath holy and how that doesn’t jive with playing competitive basketball or such. Yet I think just about everyone is able to acknowledge exceptions. We draw the line in a different place (I’m not trying to come up with a finely tuned list of what is and isn’t acceptable on Sunday for everyone) but I think everyone has a line they’ll draw that says: “when it’s this important, or for this cause or whatever else, we can skip Church and perform a non-Sabbath-related activity”). For instance, those with jobs which have to be done on Sunday (e.g. medical) will normally be willing to skip Church for work.
Now before I go on, I must be clear: I am not suggesting that those who do forgo such events to attend Church are wrong to do so, certainly not! Rather, it seems that there is no consideration for the idea that it may be OK to skip Church in preference for something else. Recall the talk last conference in which the parents knew the “right answer” to their daughter’s dilemma about participating in a playoff of some sort on Sunday? This is what I have trouble understanding.
I’m going to be leaving in a few weeks for a hiking/backpacking trip in Wyoming. I will be gone over two Sundays, neither of which will involve me attending Church (the first one I will be many miles from even a trail, much less a road or a Church!) I’m concerned because I feel absolutely no remorse about this. Nor do I mind when family come to visit, or vice-versa, and I don’t attend Church in preference for spending time with them (they will not attend Church). If I was in a playoff game, if it weren’t for these semi-frequent talks, it wouldn’t even occur to me to skip it for Church. I consider these to be extreme events and don’t mind trumping Church for them.
In the end, I’d say I miss around 5 services a year. Maybe less, but that’s a good guess. There’s definitely a concern that if you hate going to Church, or just are always looking for excuses to miss, choosing to miss for any reason can cause you to slippery-slope your way out of ever attending. Or if you join activities which regularly conflict with Sabbath day worship obviously I see that as a problem. But while you never know another person’s soul, the conditions just described don’t seem to meet the criteria put forward in the type of talks and experiences I mentioned at the beginning.
Is my question clear? I know there’s not one right answer for everyone, but I’m concerned that the way I understand the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy, it wouldn’t even cross my mind to do what so many (including so many who are invited to speak to us in General Conference) find to be such the obviously unique, correct solution that the alternative is never even mentioned as having the possibility of being right. Am I thinking about this all wrong? What principle decrees such a clear, dividing line in the case of sports or other extra-curricular?
posted
There's a principle I have learned to be true. Simply put (I wish I had a means to draw this)
when you learn about keeping a commandment, you see or learn certain blessings come from it. It may make you wonder if it's worth it. Worth to really do it that way. As long as you almost keep the commandment (this once doesn't matter etc), you only see those blessings - or a few of them that you've received. You wonder what's the big deal about this commandment. What's the fuss. You see kind of like a circle drawn under your foot, looking down.
But when you fully keep the commandment it's like you're lifted a mile above the earth and you see everything beneath you. That's how many blessings you actually receive - some very personal, some similar to other people's blessings for the same commandment. But you simply cannot see nor comprehend it until you live fully by the commandment. It takes a leap of faith and until then you're in a state of wondering.
For me, I personally could not attend a world championship as an athlete on a Sunday for example. I simply could not because it would be such a violation of who I am what I have promised. I'm perhaps not a mile up in the sky, but I'm up there enough to just know that I would not want to do it. Why would I want to go down and see and receive less. I'd know what I'd give up. Until you've been there, you don't know what you're giving up.
I don't know if it answered your question or not, but that's how I see the principle, which applies to this commandment also.
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quote:And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
I take this to mean that the sabbath isn't about should and shouldn't, can and can't, allowed and not allowed. What it IS about, I'm still struggling at putting into words. Maybe intent and the way one's heart is pointed, have more to do with it, than deciding specific dos and don'ts? I dunno.
I've been too introspective and thoughtful about the matter to give other people good suggestions, ever since a girl I was dating took me to her work one Sunday. She worked for a kennel, and it was her job to give Ming the Simeese cat her daily injection of insulin. And clean litter boxes and all the other dirty stuff that line of work requires. I've half-concluded that if it isn't something you can do on a Sunday, as a disciple of Christ, filled with the spirit, is it something worth doing at all?
posted
Just yesterday a friend and I were discussing football and expanding the league by adding a minor league. And he mentioned Salt Lake as a place with a large enough market. I said, "Salt Lake will never get a football team, they play on Sunday."
"But, what about the Jazz they play on Sunday?"
"They purposely schedule their games so they have no home games on Sunday. That way they can maintain an illusion."
And then we talked about championship games and how they are played on Sunday. And probably a big chunk of the attendees are LDS.
Doesn't really answer anything, but I think it's interesting you brought this up the day after.
I know our scout master really wants to have permission to have "church" at camp, because that's what he grew up with. Also, he recalls those being the best meetings. But, that takes double super secret permission.
You're not going to get permission to serve yourself the sacrament. But, you could take the day off, read scriptures, meditate. So, the only thing you would be really missing is the sacrament.
Someone once told me, could be folklore, that for awhile, when the saints first arrived in soon to be Utah, they didn't have church services every Sunday. And they started when non-LDS started showing up. The commandment is to keep the Sabbath holy, not go to church on Sunday.
Minor quibble, I've been told that we're commanded to go to Sacrament meeting, and for guys Priesthood. But, everything else is optional.
I think it's a mistake to fall into the logic of, either I do it therefore you must to, or they're doing it, so therefore it's OK for me to do it.
I'm not sure if drawing a line in the sand is needed, after all it is just sand. However, drawing a line in the bedrock, now that might just be a good idea. Also, seems to me that even a line drawn in the bedrock can be improved on. Maybe a little later draw another line a little farther up the hill. But, I think it is only in a perfect world that two people would have the same final line.
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posted
I think it is possible for an individual to choose to participate in a national championship as a good thing, just as it is possible for a worthy person to work at McD's on sundays if that is the only employment option available, or work as an ER doc or police officer even if other employment options are available. But if the activity is not worshiping God and renewing spirit and serving others, one isn't keeping the sabbath day holy when doing it. Of course there are individuals who will say they asked God and He inspired them to do it, and who are we to second guess what could certainly happen.
And sacrificing for our faith (as in giving up the good thing for something better) is sanctifying.
If I were going to be in the woods for two weeks, I would be planning no hiking or other activity on the Sabbath's I was there, just as the saints crossing the plains did not travel on the Sabbath. But sometimes I do have to travel on Sunday for business, and when that happens I have no qualms in missing. I used to feel really guilty about missing any sunday: I was blessed with new perspective when I found myself unable to attend sometimes physically. (And then I thought of how many times I selfishly attended when contagious, infecting others.)
Bottom line, the level of sabbath keeping matters, and it gets both easier to understand valid exceptions as well as harder to accept better rather than best as one's faith grows and one's view of sabbath's purpose and value expands.
quote: Minor quibble, I've been told that we're commanded to go to Sacrament meeting, and for guys Priesthood. But, everything else is optional.
not quite sure what your quibble is, but mine is the "optional" bit.
We are asked in our TR questions if we attend our Sacrament and priesthood meetings. Sunday School, Young Men, Young Women, Primary and Relief Society are Priesthood Auxilliaries - they are therefore priesthood meetings, in that they are directed under the priesthood keys of the Bishop.
posted
Another thought from my perspective of why not... Personally for me keeping the sabbath holy means focusing my thoughts on the Saviour and things of the gospel. I'm not there yet to be able to do it while working out at the gym for example. I would be thinking of me. The reason I don't bake goodies on Sundays either, is because with that I'm only serving my appetite and body desires. If I ever get to the point where I can fully focus on the right things and not me, I have no problem with various activities. Until then I prefer not to do many things because they take my mind away from the more important things.
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quote: We are asked in our TR questions if we attend our ...
I don't recall specific meetings being iterated in the printed text of TR interview. Also, last I heard bishops were instructed to not add to the interview. In that, they of themselves decide that every member should be asked some additional question. Not to say that they shouldn't probe deeper when prompted by the spirit.
So, IMO, the temple recommend interview, as I last heard it (almost two years now since I'm coming up for renewal), does not override what I was earlier taught.
In my time in the church, I've run into many leaders who conflate suggestion and commandment.
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posted
My memory was something along the lines of: Do you attend your meetings, but if they do iterate specific meetings and they only mention Sacrament and Priesthood, then that adds credence to my original assertion.
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posted
Do women get asked if they attend their Priesthood meetings? If not, do they get asked if they attend their "meetings"?
As a lawyer, I have to quibble (there's that word again) with the interpretation that "Priesthood meetings" actually means "all meetings" because all the other meetings are conducted under the authority of the Priesthood. If they meant "all meetings", they'd say "all meetings".
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posted
When I interview a sister, I omit (right, wrong or not - perhaps I should ask for clarification) the priesthood meeting part and simply ask if they attend sacrament meeting. Because until Andrew said what he did, I had never considered that "priesthood" may imply more then the meeting at the end of the block that only the 12+ males go to.
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posted
From an English grammar point of view the word "meeting" is plural in that context because more than one meeting is in the list. "Meetings" is not attached specifically to the word priesthood. If that were the case, then the proper phrasing would have been "Do you attend Sacrament meeting and your Priesthood meetings."
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posted
Perhaps. I was away from the responsibility of TR interviews for a while, so my wrote memory of the questions is a little off.
Sis. Weeds does not remember being asked if she attends priesthood meeting, so I must not be alone in my ommitance.
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posted
I became far less stressed out about culturally driven overzealous observation of the Sabbath after Pres. Hinkley's demonstrated lack of interest in it.
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quote: I became far less stressed out about culturally driven overzealous observation of the Sabbath after Pres. Hinkley's demonstrated lack of interest in it.
Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. No, seriously, I am drawing a blank—what are you referring to?
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1) When GBH spoke about his interview with Larry King during GC he asked the members to watch the interview that sunday night.
2) He watched Pres. Bush's Iraq war anouncement between sunday sessions and spoke his concern in the pm session
3) He attended the Sunday olympic opening ceremony and encouraged the members to actively participate.
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quote: 8. Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and priesthood meetings, and to keep you life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
Grammar aside, all auxilliary meetings are priesthood meetings. This is not a bishop aksing additional questions.
If anyone wants any further reasoning for why attending other Sunday meetings, or weekly meeting, should be seen as an obligation, I suggest the covenant we make when we sustain leaders, teacher, etc. is sufficient to warrant our attendance.
1) When GBH spoke about his interview with Larry King during GC he asked the members to watch the interview that sunday night.
2) He watched Pres. Bush's Iraq war anouncement between sunday sessions and spoke his concern in the pm session
3) He attended the Sunday olympic opening ceremony and encouraged the members to actively participate.
Those are 3 cases where I see him filling his role as Prophet to the world, representative of the Church, and missionary. I don't see a casualness about observing the Sabbath there at all. It's not like he was water skiing or taking in the latest Bourne movie.
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posted
I think my point is that we all have a principle we're applying to determine if we're all right missing Church, or really the Sabbath entire, based on certain circumstances. That the principle is altered from person to person (and thus the circumstances are different) is expected and, to my way of thinking, healthy. But I've always had trouble figuring out what a good, foundation principle is. And I have trouble understanding other's idea of what their pricniple is. Not that mine has to be the same (nor do I evern want it to be the same) but it's a pretty healthy way to take a gut-check on yourself. Are you wildly different from everyone else on this thing? If so, do you understand and are comfortable with why that is so?
quote:As long as you almost keep the commandment (this once doesn't matter etc), you only see those blessings - or a few of them that you've received. You wonder what's the big deal about this commandment. What's the fuss. You see kind of like a circle drawn under your foot, looking down.
But when you fully keep the commandment it's like you're lifted a mile above the earth and you see everything beneath you. That's how many blessings you actually receive - some very personal, some similar to other people's blessings for the same commandment. But you simply cannot see nor comprehend it until you live fully by the commandment.
What, exactly, is the commandment? Does this suggest that missing Church, ever, will disqualify you? If not, what is the criteria by which you judge when it is and is not OK? That's the point of my question. We use some criteria to determine if we think it is right to miss on Sunday, and I think just about everyone's criteria would allow a 'miss' in plausible circumstances. Are you quite ill? Do you work at a hospital and cycle through some Sundays at work? Is there a family emergency? Almost everyone would think these qualify as reasons to miss Church, or even miss the Sabbath. Do they also come with a loss of blessing?
A list of things you would and wouldn't miss Church for isn't the point. Going through the things I listed and agreeing or disagreeing isn't the point. The point is that what is this criteria, that is literally preached in general conference, that makes playing a game, or having some other major event on Sunday so unacceptable as to not even be worthy of consdieration?
If we are comfortable missing Church to prevent, sudden, material loss (let's say there's a sprung fixture at home and your house is slowly flooding) that's one thing. But why is a reverse-emergency, a sudden, material gain not (e.g. a chance to win in D.C. for national history day and meet the President)? Is the status-quo really what we measure against? I can't make my life better but I can keep it from getting worse? Does that make sense?
Right now my thoughts are this: I will miss Church for extreme circumstances. For me they're a little more common since my entire family is athiest/agnostic and thus any time I'm around them I have to choose between family and Church (and when it's only a couple times a year, family trumps Church for me, though when I lived at home the reverse was true) but it still holds. Then I have in my mind what qualifies as extreme circumstances, run that through a full year, and figure out how many days I'll miss. In this case 5. Am I comfortable with 5? Am I comfortable with the fact that it could cause me to miss more if I get sick for an extended period of time, or some other, unforseen circumstance? Then I actually pay attention to how often I miss and see if it lines up. Am I still comfortable? Then it checks out.
Such a principle and application would easily allow for state-championships, or national contests, and thus I determine that this must be a very different principle from what is being applied by the majority of the (active) Church and I want to know why. Because if I don't know why I'm so far off, I can't evaluate if I'm all right with the reason behind it.
quote:To qualify for a temple recommend, you should strive to do your duty in the Church, attending your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings. You must also strive to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel. Learn in your youth to accept callings and other responsibilities that come to you. Be active participants in your wards and branches, and be one your leaders can depend on.
(The "bolded" part is in the article.)
While I don't look at "other meetings" as "priesthood meetings," there is the idea that the question is more about being a good "church citizen" than simply checking off on an attendance roll.
quote:Sunday School, Young Men, Young Women, Primary and Relief Society are Priesthood Auxilliaries - they are therefore priesthood meetings, in that they are directed under the priesthood keys of the Bishop.
While I probably agree with you as to the importance of these auxialiary meetings, that is a HUGE "read in" to the question.
I mean, seriously? What normal person is going to read all of that into the question "do you attend priesthood meeting?"
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posted
Hobbes, I think one of the criteria is "am I doing it for me or the Lord". If it's the latter, it is acceptable, if it's the first, it's not. Thus no one else can judge other people's actions, because you can't tell. But in general you'd think winning the gold medal is your personal ambition, though you may be a good example by doing it, the Lord might want you do something different on that day (or with your life). If you're wondering about a specific thing, you pray about it and do as the Lord tells you. For many the Holy Ghost tells you without praying which is the one Lord wants you to do. That's part of the blessings you recieve more when you more fully keep the commandment.
To me the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy is to keep the Lord in mind first. For the whole day. To do His work, not my pleasure. Church meetings is one way.
I don't think you can predetermine when you'd skip the church either. Sometimes in very similar situations skipping is good or ok, sometimes not acceptable for the Lord. It's individual and only you can determine those things for you at different times.
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posted
OK Here is the weird thing. I go to wards everywhere is the world- usually there is an English speaking someone who will take me under their wing if the service is not bi-lingual. I go to the temple where I can as well. Gladly, wholly, with joy. I go because the spirit of the gathering of Saints is so very ( words fail).
On the other hand, I just dread going to either the temple or ward here at home. I rarely find joy, I usually came home depressed, I have to put on a real party face every single Sunday. I go to make sure I am telling the truth when having a TR interview.
But it isn't the whole truth at all. My person is in the seat, I, on the other hand, am not present at all. ( yes, I STUDY my lessons and come ready to participate, as singularly worthless for the class it might be. Good thing I like to study.)
So I personally am glad the question is not about our attitude about attending said classes.
On the OT, even with non-members in the house, we have a Sabbath. It is a quieter, simpler day. It is helped by laws keeping stores shut on a Sunday. It is helped by a father who is a real family person. Yes, we sometimes watch sport. We sometimes take a nap too. we all go to church together, because that is what we do- whether you believe or not. I don't make a huge issue of family birthdays on Sunday ( although most of them are on Saturday because they know we go to church and it is really exhausting for me to travel and have such a long full day--8-10 hours of concentrated translation for a hard of hearing person is not the highlight of the month.)
When I can't get to a meeting on Sunday I do make a concentrated effort to not travel, not sightsee, read scriptures, perhaps view a talk or something on the website.
Again, I think personal attitude is going to be part of the eternal accounting made, I agree it isn't the space we take up in the chapel.
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Thing is, that's the same question you can ask about so many things.
Tithing - what is a full tithe? Harmful substances - coke or not? Energy drinks or not? Whether a movie is acceptable.
We are all different and the level to which "WE" should do something will be different.
What is important is that when you share your thoughts and ideas about how you will live a certain commandment that you get the right answer from the Lord for "YOU".
In a forum such as this I will only say the toughest line, or at least the one I try to live. But that doesn't make it the right one for anyone else - just me and mine.
Do I think Sunday attendance is required every week with no exceptions? No. Do I believe the exceptions should be exceptional? Yes.
Just this Sunday past I did not go to any meetings at all. My daughter gave birth to my second grandchild 200 miles away at 5:10am. At 10:00am I left for the 3½ hour drive.
Do I feel guilty? Not at all. Quite apart from the fact that I have attended at least 5 more Sacrament, Sunday School and Primary (I play the piano there) sessions this year than my fellow ward members, this was an acceptable exception for me.
Andrew R. (who's ward meets in the afternoon but who attends all unit conferences as stake clerk and as a member of the stake Sunday School presidency - often teaching Sunday School)
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quote:To qualify for a temple recommend, you should strive to do your duty in the Church, attending your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings.
As I said before, many leaders have a hard time with suggestions. Often elevating them to the same level of rule.
To be clear here is my order of precedence: 1) Commandment - Rule that comes from God. 2) Rule - A specific method or way on how something is to be done given by someone in authority. 3) Suggestion - The preferable method or way something is to be done given from someone in authority.
An example of a rule: Handbook 18.2 - The bishop oversees ward meetings. He presides at these meetings unless a member of the stake presidency, an Area Seventy, or a General Authority attends.
An example of a suggestion: Normally, ward or stake leaders conduct monthly baptismal services for all 8-year-old children of record in the ward or stake. Members should not request special or individual times or prescribe the content of baptismal services.
I suspect though that most discussion will revolve around suggestions. Keywords in this example are normally, and should. And in the statement by Hunter, the keyword is strive.
I think what concerns leaders is an attitude of casualness. And if anyone thinks I am suggesting an attitude of casualness/convenience when I say certain utterances are suggestions, that would be a mistake. When a very wise/important person makes a suggestion, then all reasonable effort should be made to fulfill that request. However, there are reasonable exceptions.
The definition of the word strive indicates trying with more than just casual effort. And in terms of the OP and the key question of what is the criteria. The phrase that comes to mind is the greater good.
An example from my life. The suggestion is to have mass monthly baptisms. However, we wanted to have my son baptized out of state where most of my family lives. Most importantly my sister, who once was very faithful, but is now inactive. We got approval from all concerned parties. My sister attended, and she felt the spirit, I know she did.
In fact she said, "I promised myself I wouldn't let these things get to me anymore." But, there she was crying and visibly affected.
The good of having a mass baptism (savings of leader's time, water savings, time) was outweighed by my sister having a spiritual experience. So, the greater good was served.
I car pool to work with a person who when they think of camping, all they think of is sleeping in an uncomfortable bed, in an uncontrolled temperature environment, eating less appealing food, and so on. He has nothing good to say about camping. On the other hand, we have a scout master who believes the most spiritual experiences are to be had wile camping. The quiet and solitude do wonders for his soul. For him it would be a greater good for the boys to have a sacrament meeting in the woods. But, that takes super double secret permission.
And I get that too. An individual can decide for themselves if they would be better served going camping in the woods. A family can decide for themselves. But, a scout troop involves a number of boys from different families who all have different attitudes about church and camping. And making sure that all these boys and their leaders needs are served by the greater good, well that takes some authority to make that kind of decision.
When I read the temple recommend question, I see it saying Sacrament and Priesthood are the two most important meetings, those two are the most required. To miss one of these meetings means that there is some significant greater good that will be served.
To miss any other meeting doesn't require the same level of greater good. For example, my son went to a school band practice instead mutual. Now, if the practice had been held on Sunday, we would have gone to Sacrament instead.
To summarize, just because something is optional doesn't mean a casual, I just don't feel like it, is good enough to not attend. And the decision to not attend anything must be weighed against the greater good.
Edit to clarify the three layers of life instructions.
posted
Hobbes, to try to directly answer your question, I think the unspoken assumption for many, many church members is "sports is inherently frivolous and unimportant". I think this is so, even for a number of people who actually quite enjoy sports. They enjoy them, they just, deep down, see them as shallow entertainment. So, even the supreme championship of a particular sport is still seen as frivolous.
I remember discussions with people back when Steve Young was playing, and their stated incredulity that he would play football on Sunday. And in response to the comment that it was his job, and lots of Mormons have to work on Sunday, their reply was always "well, he should have found another line of work." So, I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong, but I think that underlying, unspoken premise doesn't apply to the calculus you have been using.
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posted
PaddingtonBear, I am not a paragon of Sunday observance, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I do not think that the issue is whether something is frivolous or important. The criteria is whether something is necessary on Sunday.
Hospital nurse - Yes Police - Yes Grocery store cashier - No Bank teller - No Football player - No
That is not a statement on whether grocery store workers or bank tellers are important or not. Of course they are. But they are not necessary on Sunday.
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posted
Taken to the extreme, the internet would be turned off, or at the very least if it stopped working, it wouldn't get fixed till Monday.
No broadcast (or cable) TV would happen on Sunday (FCC regulations last I checked require someone on duty when a station is transmitting).
Same for radio.
A lot more than just stores and restaurants would be closed on Sunday.
What about the camera operators, the director, the switch technician, the sound technician for general conference. Why do they get a pass to work just because they're broadcasting religious content?
That which is strictly necessary is a very narrow and limited definition of what's allowed. Especially, if that includes anything that could have been prepared on Saturday.
I almost forgot, what about the power company? If the hospital is open, they need power. But, I'm thinking that the power company could have a reduced staff if they only supplied power to the hospital. We don't need power, do we?
posted
FlyByNight, I have come to believe over the years that "taken to the extreme" responses are rarely useful or enlightening. Yes, one needs to use wisdom to determine what is "necessary". I intentionally did not provide a rule to determine it, instead I provided examples that I believe are pretty clearly on one side or the other.
I think an important part of spiritual development is learning to walk the Path the best we can by figuring out the truth the best we can and listening to the Spirit. I imagine that as a result of this freedom different people will arrive at different answers as to what is okay on Sunday and what is not. I further think that those answers will change as they go through life. I think that that's okay.
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posted
Jim, I'm not saying that I believe sports are frivolous and unimportant, but that I think there is a very real undercurrent of that belief in Mormon circles. Besides, even your standard ("is this necessary?") is, I believe, simply another point on the scale, which runs (at least in my own mind) something like this: evil-bad-not good-not necessary-neutral-harmless-frivolous-cromulent-necessary-good-best.
So, if the real debate is over how far down on the scale you can go on Sunday, if you believe sports are unnecessary or frivolous, they are far below the cut off of necessary, for instance.
The interesting thing for me is that I don't really care what other people do or don't do. I follow the dictates of my own conscience and try not to borrow guilt. It seems to work pretty well so far. So, I've got that going for me. Which is nice.
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posted
All professional sports play on Sunday. Therefore, according to that reasoning professional sports is not a career option for any LDS person no matter how talented they are.
However, we know that there are many LDS professional athletes. Currently the only standard we have of personal worthiness is a temple recommend. So, it seems to me that someone more important than me has decided that if your a professional athlete participating on Sunday is OK.
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quote:Therefore, according to that reasoning professional sports is not a career option for any LDS person no matter how talented they are.
If they subscribe to my way of thinking, which as you point out later is not required to be a member in good standing, yes. That being said, I am comfortable with the idea that other people can weigh the pros and cons and come up with a valid but different result.
quote: Currently the only standard we have of personal worthiness is a temple recommend.
I strongly disagree with this. The companionship of the Spirit is a far more accurate and meaningful standard of personal worthiness.
quote:So, it seems to me that someone more important than me has decided that if your a professional athlete participating on Sunday is OK.
I would have phrased it like this- "So, it seems to me that the relevant Church leaders have decided that playing professional sports, or doing any other job, on Sunday is not forbidden."
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quote: Currently the only standard we have of personal worthiness is a temple recommend.
I was referring to a standard that could be observed externally and has a means of being verified (i.e. they produce the recommend). A person's standing with the spirit is their own affair.
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posted
FlyByNight, Yes, I understood that. Which one do you think is more useful as a guide in honoring the Sabbath?
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posted
Hobbes - it's interesting that you ask this question. I've just taken 2 teaching series at Education Week. Both teachers taught us to teach students to find the doctrine and principles in the scriptures and modern words of the prophets. To help the students feel the Spirit so they can apply it to their own lives. One thing that was clear was to not tell students, whether children or adults, how to apply the principles.
Doctrine: "the word of God as found in the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets and apostles."
Principles: I have a rough time defining this. I can see, from my classes, that it is different than doctrine, but it overlaps enough that it is hard for me to define. Basically principles are truths that come with the doctrine.
So as I understand it...
From Elder Perry with words in bold from me added:
quote:There is one of the Lord’s basic commandments which we see so much violation of in the world today. The Lord instructed ancient Israel: (Doctrine) “Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy” (Exodus 20:8).
The Lord has not withheld instructions from His Saints in this day. In fact, He has given us some pretty specific instructions about what we should do on His holy day.
There appear to be three things that the Lord would require of us in keeping His day holy (see D&C 59:9–13):
(Principle) 1. To keep ourselves unspotted from the world. (Principle) 2. To go to the house of prayer and partake of the sacrament. (Principle) 3. To rest from our labors.
These are just some of the principles that you can find about the doctrine. Elder Perry goes on to give a few applications of the doctrine and principles. As an apostle I think that is in his right. For the rest of us I agree that we shouldn't be teaching others how to apply them in their lives.
I think it can be a benefit to discuss what we personally do to apply these things. Sometimes things are brought up that we never would have thought of on our own. I'm not so comfortable in a classroom situation doing this as people may take it for doctrine, besides the fact that I have read about not teaching the applications either in manuals or elsewhere on lds.org. I forget where.
So personally I go with the idea "will this help me keep the Sabbath holy today? or "Is there an activity that will be better?" rather than "Is this exception OK?"
It's interesting how it has worked out for us. Rex and I feel our family shouldn't travel when we need to spend gas or check into or out of a hotel on Sunday. Almost never have a problem with this if we plan and we always feel good with what we have done because we have asked for the Spirit to help us in our planning and are willing to not see everything.
A couple of years ago we traveled home from Palmyra. Long story short we ended up in an awful motel that was filthy, had roaches and possible drug dealers next door on a Saturday night with no where else to go. With prayer we chose to check out the next day and were given our favorite experience of the trip by being invited to stay at a total stranger's house Sunday night. We had debated for several hours whether to accept the invitation and keep the sabbath holy (for us) or check into a new hotel. The spirit of the law said we should check out. The letter said we should stay with this stranger whom we hadn't met yet. It was very difficult for me to accept, but has been a blessing our children love to talk about.
It takes planning and it doesn't always work according to the plan, but I find when I try to keep the letter of the law (according to what the Spirit has told my family) the Spirit always brings great blessings through the spirit of the law and I don't have to worry whether I am justifying an exception.
quote: I’m concerned because I feel absolutely no remorse about this.
Then ask the Lord if there is something better you should be doing or if this is the best way for you to spend the Sabbath on that day.
posted
We had a lesson on this today in Priesthood Meeting, and there were two things brought up that I hadn't heard before.
One was kinda a joke. We read the letter-of-the-law scripture from the ten commandments in Exodus 20, and contrasted the 4th commandment with the 10th commandment. Thou shalt do no work on the Sabbath. Nor thy son, thy daughter, thy manservant, thy maidservant, thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, his wife, his manservant, maidservant, ox or ass. By this list, it might be OK to covet thy neighbor's son or daughter. And conspicuously missing from who is to do no work on the Sabbath is thy wife. So is it OK if our wives work on Sunday?
The other interesting concept was the discussion of which commandments required the death penalty for those who disobeyed, and why. It seems such a small issue for such an extreme penalty. Why would the Lord require such a thing.
The result of actually enforcing the death penalty for disobeying a commandment is--an entire people that keeps that commandment. Apparently there are some commandments that give extra blessings if the entire people obey them. Some of these advantages are obvious. For example, if the entire world kept the law of chastity, all STDs and AIDS and such would be wiped out in one generation. If your whole people kept the not kill commandment, nobody would have to fear being killed. There was a quote from President George Albert Smith in the manual that talked about how great it would be if everyone in the country kept the Sabbath day holy. We read part of Leviticus where the Lord talks about how he will bless his people if they keep his Sabbaths. He will send rain upon the earth and prosper the crops. Boy, couldn't we use that this year! He will bless us in battle--five will chase off an hundred, and an hundred will chase off ten thousand. There are lots more.
But he can't send these blessings to us, because as a people, we don't keep the Sabbath. There is much work going on throughout the weekend around here. We try not to be part of it, but the Lord doesn't send rain on just part of the land. It isn't enough. It was interesting to think about.
Another interesting thing was the instructor asked the fireman in our quorum point blank if he worked on Sunday. He said yes. About half the time. Then he asked if it bothered him. I really liked his response. "Sometimes. But then sometimes, not. When I go out on a call and work on a guy who had a heart attack, I don't feel badly about it, not even a little bit." There are times when you can try to pre-arrange to not work on Sunday, but we still haven't figured out how to reliably schedule heart attacks and (non-Cesarean) childbirth.
We brought up the Steve Young question. The feeling was mixed. Some people felt he should have chosen another line of work. They quoted others who were drafted into professional sports, but declined and found something else to do. Or the famous Rugby player who wouldn't play on Sunday so they actually re-scheduled games for him. He was that good.
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quote: There are times when you can try to pre-arrange to not work on Sunday, but we still haven't figured out how to reliably schedule heart attacks and (non-Cesarean) childbirth.
And only cesarean some of the time. Many happen for emergency reasons.
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