posted
I think I would just ignore the words. They are filler generally (and sometimes come after having asked a lot of others). The person who said it is just oblivious to the aggravation the words can give.
People today are busy, and in that busy ness, they sometimes are unwilling to do a little thing. If enough members decline a little thing, the hole becomes a huge thing. And that makes it hard on the few who recognize the problem and so never say "no" when they are asked.
For a long time, my family was always among the last to leave, because we pitched in to clean up. And there were more than a few harried leaders who thank us as though we were lifesavers. Because my parents gave us that experience from the time we were barely able to help as opposed to get in the way, I knew what a blessing it would be for my children (even if they went to bed late sometimes or we had to substitute reciting a scripture or two on the way home for reading a few once we got there.
Posts: 2183 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
In reality, while I do have repsonsibilities which take up far more time that people assume, my dearth of children does give me extra time.
I am happy to spend it building the Kingdom of God.
However I would not respond well to such a silly statement as "since you don't have kids, you should have time for yada-yada-yada."
But that is why the church is as true as the gospel. We get our rough edges rubbed off by working closely with abrasive saints of the latter days. Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
When I was a newlywed, I worked part-time with a very abrasive mother of 2. On my day off once, she called me at home and said, "Since you're probably just sitting there watching TV, I thought maybe you could come take over for me so I can go home and spend time with my sons." I had been trying to get pregnant for several months, which made a rude statement pretty cold as well. Plus I didn't like her. So I told her that didn't work for me. Nevermind that I WAS just sitting there watching TV.
Sometimes the messengers shoot themselves.
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posted
SW, your last paragraph is probably my favorite thing you've posted. Would that more of us--me included--remembered that.
Posts: 3862 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Jen, when someone has the absolute power to just say no, and you need something from them really badly, it's probably not a good idea to lead with an insult.
Crowgirl, thank you very much. I must confess the idea is not my own. But I like it.
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posted
I don't think it's a matter of having kids or not having kids. It's that other people are not always aware with what anyone else does with their time and are not respectful of that. I get the same kind of things said to me "since your kids are in school and you don' work". It's interesting because other people will say, "you're always so busy." Really, it's somewhere in between what the 2 sides think.
Posts: 4963 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Yesterday I got a call from a single mother who doesn't have a car, asking if I'd pick up her son who was stranded a couple miles away at a high school football practice. It was really inconvenient for me, because I'd just pulled into my driveway all the way home from work, and the high school is right next to my work.
She practically said, "Because I don't have a husband, and I don't have a car, and I don't have a job, and I'm stuck home with kids..." Well, she didn't say that... actually she just asked... I inserted all that other stuff, because I knew of her situation... and still I was angry cuz I just wanted to relax and take it easy, and helping people was the last thing I wanted to do.
I thought that her son ought to just walk home. After all, he's practicing for football, it'd be good exercise. Sure it'd take all day... and later I discovered she needed him home to help with a birthday party she was having for her youngest son... at the apartment pool.
After a grudging explanation that I'd just driven from work to home, and that I'd be driving all the way back, I said I'd do it.
When I walked in the door, I discovered my wife had been avoiding answering the phone, having caller ID, she knew that this lady needed help, but because her mom was visiting, she just didn't answer the phone at home. So the lady called the cellphone and I answered...
I dropped the lady's son off at home, with only a few words, cuz her son's mostly an innactive confused teen going through a lot of tough crap in his life, and doesn't really know how to talk to people in any meaningful way. During that long silence I had a lot of time to think...
I'm fairly certain I didn't get a single blessing from doing the act of "kindness" because I did it with a grudging heart.
Now that I think of my response, I'm ashamed.
Who cares if you're busy or if you can make it or not? Either you help someone or you don't. Either we give a gift or we don't.
When someone needs help, there's no easy way to ask for it. Sometimes it takes real guts to just call and ask...
Everyone's plenty busy. Elder Uctdorf's taught us that.
Posts: 13057 | Registered: Oct 98
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posted
Several times from church leaders I have heard, "Service rarely comes at convenient times." I've watched that a lot now and have found most of the time, for me, it actually does, but it is nice to repeat that to myself in times where it isn't convenient.
But I think there is a difference in being willing to do service and being frustrated when people expect you do do service when "you have nothing else to do". You can actually be willing and frustrated at the same time even though it isn't easy.
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quote:...because he didn't want to miss watching NASCAR in order to go to the cafeteria.
Yeah, any time you can get him away from that trash was a blessing to his life, I'm sure.
Can I say that I will forever and ever, amen, hate NASCAR with a white hot passion?
My father NEVER watched NASCAR (or really much else), until he married "Madame Okie." Then we'd visit him on weekends and it would always be "C'mon in we're a-watchin' NAY AS CAR."
So we'd have to listen to that junk while trying to visit with my dad.
Why couldn't she have watched something useful like Georgia Championship Wrestling (Do they even still do that on Saturdays? It's been a while).
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quote: And I don't think that anyone consciously says that, instead we read into the implication and then take offense.
I'm a little confused at this. Do you mean they don't realize they are saying it or do you mean they don't actually say it?
Because I do think people infer things an awful lot, but I have actually heard "since you don't..." a number of times.
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posted
Ah yes, Roper, I forgot about that scripture that states: If a man ask thy coat, give him thy cloak also, unless you judge him unworthy, at which point you tell him to stop freeloading and kick him in the butt. Posts: 13057 | Registered: Oct 98
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posted
There is the whole, family first and don't run faster than you have strength stuff too, ray. Are you just being contrary or do you really believe that we should always do what people ask of us, no matter what?
Posts: 4330 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
fwiw, roper, i struggle with the same thing... I also find myself often having to repent for giving service or avoiding it because I deem those on the receiving end to be undeserving... It is a constant struggle these days to share my wife with the sisters of my ward, for example.
Then again it's not like she's my possession that gets better the more I horde it to myself. I'm starting to come to the point where I wonder if there isn't some way I can give to my wife more of my time and focus, so that she can give more too. I think that's a key to avoiding our fears of losing our family to unworthy causes... including them in every opportunity to serve.
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My wife was attending a meeting in church the other day where this was brought up, in terms of financial support. My wife's family, being converts, were unaware of the fact that some people in the church use it as an excuse to freeload and essentially steal. They have been taken advantage of multiple times, and have only learned through their experiences. "Can I stay with your family, while I look for a job?" (3 months of TV later, they get kicked out and go to the next unlucky victim). Anyway, at the meeting my wife made the point that it is not always in the best interest of the person to help them the way they think they need to be helped (or something like that). She was immediately set upon. Scriptures about giving coats when asked, etc...
I guess it goes back to my question about forgiveness. Just exactly what is it the God wants us to do? Is it really unkind, or worse, unChristlike, to say no to a request? No. Judgement is the Lord's, but the spirit can tell us to say no.
Some of the best experiences in my life have come from service. Sometimes that service started out grudgingly, and yet the Lord softened my heart and I was blessed for it. But I have felt the spirit tell me to say no.
(P.S. I hometeach a single sister, and my companion often cannot make it. You'd be surprised at how hard it can be to get a companion sometimes. Of course, that might be a function of the fact I have to start looking about 20 minutes before the appointment.)
posted
i know there are probably exceptions out there, but it's so easy to sum up a person's bad behavior and use it as an excuse not to share--when for me, I'm just using it as an excuse, rather than doing what Christ asked us to do, which is often to be taken advantage of for the Savior's sake.
I guess it doesn't help that today I read the story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehites, who would rather lay down their lives (probably the most drastic and terrible form of exploitation possible) rather than RISK sinning.
I admit freely I'm a sinner, and no where near the level of faith of those wonderful lamanite converts... I just hope someday, by their example, I can let this world and all the stuff that holds me back, go away, and put all my trust in God's way--no matter what man can do.
I honestly think the greatest challenge Christ gives us is learning to trust that we can do good even to people who might spitefully use us, and trust that in so doing it that at least a few will see the error of their ways, use their agency with no coercion other than their own consciences after witnessing injustice they themselves caused, and drop their swords and change. Those are the very most lost sinners that God pleads for us to reach out to... those that have no other form of justification other than the possibility that they'll only come back after hurting us...
Then again, when I consider the pain and agony I caused my Savior, I suppose it is small suffering.
posted
When you don't read the spam in your junk folder is it because of the bad behavior of the individual?
When you don't join a multi-level marketing scheme that your neighbor presents to you, is it because of the bad behavior of your neighbor?
If so, then yeah, maybe you need to work on not judging. That doesn't mean those actions are unwise for other, non-judgemental reasons. To condemn others as having that same fault of judging unrighteously when in fact they are being wise stewards is going beyond the mark.
A very dear neighbor of mine just lost his house. He had been working at a job, without receiving pay, for a number of years. I personally felt that was an unwise decision, but he felt like it was the right decision at the time. He is now living with his family in the house of his in-laws who are on a mission, has found temporary work (that pays), and I think things are on the mend. I could have sacrificed, and spent a boat-load of money to keep them in their house. But I didn't. I could have judged them unworthy of the money due to their foolish financial decisions. But I didn't do that either. In fact, I seriously considered helping them in that way. I think he is a great guy and they are a great family. But I truly felt it would not be a wise thing to do.
I suppose that the pain and agony of giving that money away is small compared with the pain and agony I caused my Savior. But that is irrelevant. God wants us to be wise stewards. Just because an action would be a sacrifice does not excuse us from our responsibility to do good with what God has given us.
So work on your judgementalism if you see that fault in yourself, but don't suppose that when someone else is being wise that they are also being judgemental.
posted
I'm kind of with Ray here. But I don't think it means that we need to say yes to every request. It means we truly see the real need and try to help with that need. So if a person x calls me for a ride, when it's not an emergency and she could very easily take the bus, it is seeing the need and helping to say there's the busstop at this and I just checked from internet that your next bus leaves in ten minutes so you'll have plenty of time to walk there. Or if the need is real but really would be hard for me to give the ride, I see the need and reply to it by saying I really can't but I know this person usually is free at this time, if you have her phone number (and two or so more people)phone him or if you don't have the number I can phone her and give her your number if that's ok. And if none of them can do it, call me back. Then I probably would give the ride.
Seeing a need and helping doesn't mean saying yes to every request. A request isn't necessarily a need at all, but a request gives you clues about the need. Just saying no and not thinking about the person and her needs at all is contrary to the gospel, I think.
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I'm with ray too. It just bothers me to no end that people jump all over you if you suggest for a moment that you should employ charity with wisdom. It bothers me when they start quoting scriptures about giving coats, when the conversation is on financial help and you have just made the point that you shouldn't always help. "Yes you should" they respond. (As if they follow their own advice.)
Even your point about needs vs. wants is one aspect of using wisdom when helping.
quote:Just saying no and not thinking about the person and her needs at all is contrary to the gospel, I think.
Just saying no after thinking about the person and her needs is not at all contrary to the gospel, in some situations, I think.
posted
zet:sorry I bugged you, I actually had a point, but sometimes it's hard to get through the noise.
THere are times when I wonder why the Anti-nephi-lehites didn't just run away, rather than lying down and letting themselves be exploited the way they did.
posted
Roper, Running away wouldn't have broken their covenant. I don't feel that running would have been somehow less faithful. They would have been sacrificing by leaving their homes behind. However, their culture may not have supported that as a valid way to handle things.
Ray, I wonder if they may have felt they had no place to go or that they would have been bringing the consequences of their choices with them.
Posts: 279 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
As I was the one who made the comments in Sunday School (I'm Zeta's wife), I'll elaborate on what I said (at least what I was trying to say). I was just trying to point out that sometimes we don't really help someone when we immediately help them out temporally. Sometimes we enable bad behavior or limit/prevent growth that our Heavenly Father would like to take place. My intent was that we pray about the best way to help. Sometimes there are alternate ways to help such as the example given above of giving out bus information to someone who needs transportation. I've seen situations where I held off offering help (after praying about it) and I've watched the individual be led by inspiration to other options. They developed a closer relationship to their Heavenly Father and they gained more confidence in their abilities.
My parents really did have some crazy requests made of them while I was growing up--requests that were completely inappropriate. My parents wanted to help and serve and sometimes agreed to do what was asked of them. Looking back they recognize how doing this hurt our family as well as not helping the person(s) who requested it. The problem is that sometimes there are pleas for help that are in the gray area of appropriateness. That's why prayer and inspiration is so important when helping someone. I believe there are times when Heavenly Father would have us help someone even when it seems we don't have the resources. We are blessed in these situations. However, I do think there are other times when it is His will that we say no. But, as has been said by others, it should be done by inspiration and with love.
Roper you posted all your scriptures while I posting this post. I think we're talking about the same thing in essence.
posted
Roper, I suppose it is possible that it was breaking the spirit of their covenant. But then why was it okay for them to leave later when they moved into Nephite lands?
Posts: 279 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Roper, you forgot King Benjamin's advice on giving to beggars... if we judge the man who puts up his petition... we're under condemnation... there's nothing in there about saying "the man brought upon him his own misery... so I will stay my hand." instead we should say "I give not because I have not..."
I agree there are times when we simply have no means to give, but I also think that in my case, I use that more as an excuse rather than pushing myself to the edge of my capacity to give.
I agree with wisdom and order, but not with judging people as undeserving when we have means to give.
And for heaven's sake, if the Spirit constrains you from giving, then obey the Spirit... but I can more easily imagine myself being deceived my own sense of justice than imagining the Spirit keeping me from giving when I have means and am asked to do so by someone that gets on my nerves...
quote: . if we judge the man who puts up his petition... we're under condemnation... there's nothing in there about saying "the man brought upon him his own misery... so I will stay my hand." instead we should say "I give not because I have not..."
There is a difference in judging a person and judging whether it is right to give something to a person. There are more reasons for giving or not giving than "he brought it on himself" and "I don't have the money. Those are just the 2 reasons King Benjamin gave.
Posts: 4963 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I've raised troubled children. I work with young people who have various obstacles through no fault of their own. I have mentally ill family members. Enabling is very destructive. Accommodating instead of teaching is rule (though accommodating while teaching is often required). Enabling has to do with volitional choice.
My spouse and I have much experience with trying to figure this out, and having the spirit tell us otherwise.
Ropers advice about not doing what another is capable of doing and not doing when we should be teaching is sound.
When I tell the mother of a very smart, but almost wholly uneducated (through no fault of her own)neighbor with Asperger's that I'd be glad to pay for a bus ticket for her daughter to make a therapy appt downtown, when she calls for a ride, because I know she needs to become independent and a 2 mile walk to the bus stop would be consistent good exercise for her, I am offering help. Mother won't accept for daughter, which is one of the reasons she is where she is in progress. Breaks my heart.
When I wonder whether my son would be in jail today if ward members hadn't rescued him from consequences they considered too harsh (like not getting to go to the prom because they hadn't done what they were supposed to do), I get that people who haven't dealt with this for themselves don't get it.
When I watch innocents whose possibilities are gutted by the bad choices of their parents, who are enabled by government, and at the same time punished for things over which they have NO control, such that hope leaves, I mourn that we don't distinguish can't from won't or don't know how to.
Bottom line, we can talk about theoretics and principles til our heads spin. But decisions in these matters need to be made (a) by those who know as much of the circumstances as can be known; (b)by those who know what enabling is and isn't and what accommodations vs teaching while accommodating is; and (c) with confirmation by the spirit. All elements are necessary in order to get it right.
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