quote:Zeta...we're arguing semantics here. When we hear the phrase that at some point "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ", we're talking about a state of penitance and I believe when this time arrives, it is what is known as the day of redemption.
I don't think we are arguing semantics. I also don't think that bowing the knee implies being penitant. The sons of perdition also bow their knees.
quote:Actually I don't agree that the "the penalty is as eternal as the life of the soul." Once we are assigned a kingdom of Glory, the suffering is over.
Maybe you should check the scriptures to find where what you quoted is taught. By the way, once someone repents, the suffering ends not because the penalty was paid by us or was non-eternal, but because the penalty was paid by Christ and we make use of the atonement through repentance.
quote:Once we've paid the penalty for our sins, what else is there besides confessing Christ?
We CAN'T pay the entire penalty for our sins. That's why the suffering won't end until we repent.
quote:Perhaps you can elaborate the difference between paying the penalty for our sins, and paying for our sins. What do you see as the difference?
It's the difference between being thrown in jail for robbing a store, and having your record purged.
quote:Lastly, I believe in v.26 where it says that those who sin after receiving the C&EMS will have to suffer the buffetings of Satan that this is saying that they will have to pay the penalty of their own sins, which McConkie, in the quote in my last post, didn't seem to disagree with.
McConkie also said that "Obviously the laws of repentance still apply...". I'm not arguing that those who wilfully sin will not have to suffer. What I'm arguing is that they can never, without becoming penitant and calling upon Christ, end their suffering through their own merits. (Note: McConkie also says that adultery makes it so they *lose* their promised inheritance, because such sins are *exempt* from the sealing promises. Do you agree with him?)
quote:What is it that you disagree with?
I disagree with your claim that someone who willfully sins after having their C&EMS and dies in their sins, will still of a necessity eventually inherit the celestial kingdom.
quote: I disagree with your claim that someone who willfully sins after having their C&EMS and dies in their sins, will still of a necessity eventually inherit the celestial kingdom.
OK, let's dispatch the rest of the arguements for now, let's focus on this. This is not MY "claim". It is what v. 26 says. Why are you making it more complicated than what's on the page? And since this is what started this thread, how do you believe this applies to Emma Smith?
Zeta-Flux: I disagree with your claim that someone who willfully sins after having their C&EMS and dies in their sins, will still of a necessity eventually inherit the celestial kingdom.
LVChuck: This is not MY "claim". It is what v. 26 says.
This is also your claim. One which we don't agree on. Apparently I didn't explain why I don't think vs. 26 is saying what you think it says, so I'll do so now. The verse is talking about what happens to those who commit very serious sins, and turn from their covenants, after having received great promises. But, fortunately, they have stopped short of committing the unpardonable sin. What is supposed to happen to such souls? First, they are destroyed in the flesh. They are cut off from the Church of God. Their temple blessings are revoked, they lose the gift of the Holy Ghost and the priesthood, and they can no longer partake of the sacrament worthily. Second, in this destroyed state, they are buffeted by Satan and his minions. They are left to suffer for their choices.
Now, in this terrible state, they have two options. One is to realize the awfulness of the situation, and the loss of so much good in their lives, to turn to Christ, and become penitant once more. That doesn't mean their suffering ends immediately, for they have incurred the wrath of a just God upon themselves by breaking sacred trusts; but by continuing that course eventually they will be cleansed once more. The other option is to do what Moroni's people did. They sorrowed, but not for their sins. Rather, they sorrowed that they couldn't live sinful lives without negative consequences; the sorrowing of the damned.
In other words, someone who is cast out of the Church, and is buffeted by Satan, and has such a great knowledge of God as to have his C&EMS, but still chooses not to repent and dies in this state, commits the unpardonable sin. Thus, the promise of exaltation in verse 26 is made void by the shedding of innocent blood.
Now is the day of our salvation. And we can choose, between everlasting life, or endless death.
quote:Why are you making it more complicated than what's on the page?
Firstly, because, while it might be true that your interpretation does not make that specific verse very complicated, it does complicate how that verse integrates with the rest of the gospel. And I'm not alone in this feeling. Most people I've talked to about this scripture find it odd, at face value, and agree with me that it seems to contradict other doctrines (at least at face value).
Second, apostles and prophets have repeatedly written, in their intepretations of the scripture, that the law of repentance is still in effect upon these people even though it isn't explicitly put that way in the verse.
We do disagree on more than I thought to begin with. We may have to (hopefully) respectfully agree to disagree.
First on what we agree on. Repentance is a necessary element in our relationship with God. It is a requirement to gain exaltation. While you seem to have argued that I was denying the need for repentance for those who have gained the C&EMS, I said at the outset the following:
quote: My answer would be, that they WILL be exalted, and that they will eventually repent, as every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, but will have to endure the buffetings of Satan until the day of remdemption.(D&C 132: 26-27)
Thus I acknowledged the need for repentance even at this early point in the discussion. I did speculate and stated as such at the beginning of the discussion on the possibility of a different standard of repentance for those who have attained this state, which says that they will have to suffer for their own sins committed after having attained the C&EMS.
Where we don’t seem to agree:
quote: I also don't think that bowing the knee implies being penitant. The sons of perdition also bow their knees.
I do think this speaks of a time when all repentance will be complete…the day of redemption. I do believe that bowing the knee and acknowledging the saving power of Jesus is implying repentance. I don’t believe that the Sons of Perdition will do this.
quote: (Doctrine and Covenants 76:109-110.)
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;
110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;
These verses are speaking of those who attain the telestial kingdom. At no place do I find this statement applied to the Sons of Perdition. I believe that is why they are Sons of Perdition because they refuse to bow and acknowledge Christ’s saving power.
I do believe that upon entering a kingdom of glory that all suffering for sins is over, else it could not be a kingdom of GLORY. I find suffering and Glory to be mutually exclusive. Scriptural reference on this:
quote: (Doctrine and Covenants 19:6-12.) 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. 7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name's glory. 8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. 9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore— 11 Eternal punishment is God's punishment. 12 Endless punishment is God's punishment. And (Doctrine and Covenants 76.) 89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
Verse 6 says: “, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment” implying that there will be an end. The Lord seems to be saying here that it is called Endless Torment because His name is Endless and this is His punishment for the unfaithful. 76: 89 seems to be saying that even the Telestial world is glorious beyond our understanding.
quote: The verse is talking about what happens to those who commit very serious sins, and turn from their covenants, after having received great promises.
and
In other words, someone who is cast out of the Church, and is buffeted by Satan, and has such a great knowledge of God as to have his C&EMS, but still chooses not to repent and dies in this state, commits the unpardonable sin. Thus, the promise of exaltation in verse 26 is made void by the shedding of innocent blood.
I believe this is more than someone who has received any great promises, but one who specifically has received the Calling and Election Made Sure. You also don’t seem to acknowledge by this statement that ability to repent continues after death, up until the day of redemption. Destroyed in the flesh means to die in the flesh, i.e. the end of mortality, and the buffetings of Satan, happens after death prior to the day of redemption. You seemed to agree with this at one point when you said:
quote: So, in effect, the promise given in D&C 132:26 is that someone who has come that far in life is only worthy to be exalted or to become a son of perdition. And, thus, the buffetings and destructions are put in place to help the person choose between them. If they don't repent during the buffetings and in spirit prison, they become sons of perdition.
…but maybe I misunderstood you.
While it is impossible to become a son of Perdition after this life per the following:
quote: "A man cannot commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body" (TPJS 357).
It is also very difficult to become a Son of Perdition:
quote: "The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball p. 23).
Well I’m not going to continue to attempt to convince anyone that I’m right and you’re wrong, in fact, I don’t reject your interpretation out of hand, because scriptures have many levels of meaning. But I will say that I read section 132 for most of my adult life, with little understanding of what the words in the revelation were referring to. Statements like: “it’s just a fancy way of saying we shouldn’t commit murder,” is also they way I read it. But then I did a great deal more research into the matter and have concluded that the words had/have specific meanings that I hadn’t realized before, and it became more clear.
I hope we already have been respectful with one another.
You wrote:
quote:While you seem to have argued that I was denying the need for repentance for those who have gained the C&EMS, I said at the outset the following:
quote:My answer would be, that they WILL be exalted, and that they will eventually repent, as every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, but will have to endure the buffetings of Satan until the day of remdemption.(D&C 132: 26-27)
Thus I acknowledged the need for repentance even at this early point in the discussion. I did speculate and stated as such at the beginning of the discussion on the possibility of a different standard of repentance for those who have attained this state, which says that they will have to suffer for their own sins committed after having attained the C&EMS.
The problem with this response, and different posters have pointed it out to you, is that while you insist that your position requires repentance your own words seem to deny it. I gave a specific example where someone didn't repent, and you said they'd still be exalted. Perhaps a better answer on your part would have been either: (1) saying that such a situation could never happen (i.e. they'd have to repent before they died), (2) they'd have to eventually repent in the spirit world, or (3) some other answer you have. Of course, if you believe (2), you'd have to explain to us why/if his probation was extended to the spirit world, and why the person would eventually have to repent in the spirit world. By the way, I don't mind (2) so much. It just seems to be that you don't believe it.
quote:Zeta-Flux: I also don't think that bowing the knee implies being penitant. The sons of perdition also bow their knees.
LVChuck: I do think this speaks of a time when all repentance will be complete…the day of redemption. I do believe that bowing the knee and acknowledging the saving power of Jesus is implying repentance. I don’t believe that the Sons of Perdition will do this.
I agree that this is talking about the final judgement. Repentance is complete, for those who will repent. However, I disagree that bowing the knee, or acknowledging Christ, implies repentance. Even the evil spirits acknowledged Christ. You also said:
quote:At no place do I find this statement applied to the Sons of Perdition.
I was thinking of Mosiah 27:31. It says, "Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye." This scripture seems to apply the phrase in question to those who have received "the judgement of an everlasting punishment." I've always understood this scripture to be referencing the sons of perdition, but I suppose that I might be wrong. Frankly, whether or not I'm right or wrong, this has little to nothing to do with D&C 132:26-27.
However, just to defend my position a little more, let's discuss your scripture. You quoted D&C 76. Part of your argument was that the scripture right before the phrase in question only references the telestial people. However, you might notice that the sons of perdition are mentioned before any of the kingdom of glory people. So, if you want D&C 76:110 not to be referring to the sons of perdition, you probably also have to limit it's scope to only the telestial people (and not the other kingdoms). In fact, this is how I interpret this scripture. I believe it is only referring to the telestial.
However, there are other scriptures that do not say, "These all shall bow the knee..." but rather, "every knee shall bow." In particular, this is done in D&C 88:104, right after God mentions the fates of the celestial, terrestrial, telestial, and sons of perdition. So, just to clarify. While I feel that D&C 76:110 is limited to the telestial, I believe that the phrase is applied in other scriptures to literally all of Heavenly Father's children, without exception. I believe that even Satan will be forced to bow the knee, before he is cast into the lake of fire forever. But as I said, whether I am right or wrong, it matters little to the discussion at hand, as far as I can tell.
You wrote:
quote:I do believe that upon entering a kingdom of glory that all suffering for sins is over, else it could not be a kingdom of GLORY.
I agree.
quote:Verse 6 says: “, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment” implying that there will be an end.
I disagree with your conclusion. And, believe me, I am not doing so to be mean or spiteful, or just plain argumentative. I honestly believe that that is not what the scripture is saying. I do believe that Heavenly Father is saying that it can have an end. But not necessarily that it must have an end.
quote:The Lord seems to be saying here that it is called Endless Torment because His name is Endless and this is His punishment for the unfaithful.
I agree. But that doesn't mean it has an end without the help of Christ. Christ is Eternal, and thus He can pay the eternal debt of our sins.
By the way, I guess I might as well prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the punishment affixed to sins is "eternal as the life of a soul." This is found in Alma 42:16-- "Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul." Thus we cannot, without Christ's atonement, ever hope to atone for our sins through our own suffering; because we'd have to suffer as long as our soul was alive. I recommend reading the whole chapter for more context.
quote:I believe this is more than someone who has received any great promises, but one who specifically has received the Calling and Election Made Sure.
Sorry. I got tired of writing C&EMS. That's what I meant by "great promises."
quote:You also don’t seem to acknowledge by this statement that ability to repent continues after death, up until the day of redemption.
If someone has committed the unpardonable sin, then no they cannot repent (or rather, will not repent). They cannot be forgiven.
quote:Destroyed in the flesh means to die in the flesh, i.e. the end of mortality...
You are probably right, and Joseph F. Smith and John Taylor agree with you. And, so I'm sorry to have implied any differently. I had looked up the phrase "buffetings of Satan," which is not limited to the next life, and so I inferred (incorrectly) that "destroyed in the flesh" did not mean getting killed. I was wrong. Although it does seem strange to me that David was not killed then.
I do think those other conditions I mentioned (about having temple blessings revoked, etc...) are all a part of the destruction process.
quote:...and the buffetings of Satan, happens after death prior to the day of redemption.
I don't think the buffetings of Satan have to be restricted to the spirit world. In fact, when the phrase "buffetings of Satan" is used, in almost all other instances in the scriptures, it seems to be in reference to the living who have been cut off from Christ's Church.
quote:It is also very difficult to become a Son of Perdition:
quote:"The sin against the Holy Ghost requires such knowledge that it is manifestly impossible for the rank and file to commit such a sin" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball p. 23).
I agree with your other statement, that after this life it isn't possible to become a son of perdition. I also agree that for most people it is difficult to become a Son of Perdition. However, those who have their C&EMS are not "rank and file" members.
------------------
So, with all of that said, maybe I can present my review of our discussion up to this point.
(A) As panamajones said, we cannot atone for our own sins. We will just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because I believe like panamajones does.
(B) In my opinion, we are judged, not only by what we did before we died, but by what we would do if we were allowed to continue life. It may just be that EVERYONE who receives their C&EMS is of such a character that if they don't commit the unpardonable sin, then they will eventually repent with all their heart, and be of celestial material. And thus, it wouldn't matter if they were killed immediately, because they will repent. Period. And this is basically what I believe. BUT, and here is the kicker, they actually MUST repent, and cannot pay for their own sins completely. And, if they aren't destroyed immediately, they might still become sons of perdition if they don't turn from their sins.
If you agree with this assessment, there really isn't much else of matter that we need discuss. Let me know what you think.
posted
I think this has been a fascinating and enlightening discussion. Thank you for indulging me in some of my speculations. I'll say again that we are agreeing more than we're disagreeing...I think in some cases, it seems that we're saying the same things with different words. But we are certainly hashing out some of the fine details of this doctrine, which is a fascinating doctrine on its face.
quote: I gave a specific example where someone didn't repent, and you said they'd still be exalted. Perhaps a better answer on your part would have been either: (1) saying that such a situation could never happen (i.e. they'd have to repent before they died), (2) they'd have to eventually repent in the spirit world,
No that's not what I said. I think I would answer your #1 to say that this situation is very unlikely, but not impossible; and that #2 is what I've been saying all along per the following:
quote: My answer would be, that they WILL be exalted, and that they will eventually repent, as every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, but will have to endure the buffetings of Satan until the day of remdemption.(D&C 132: 26-27)
...where I said in that first answer to your question "that they will eventually repent" prior to the day of redemption...one of the conditions of your question was, "and dies without repenting first"...my answer was to your question.
Yes in other posts I did speculate that their repentance may be different from what we go through and there is an element of this doctrine that makes one wonder if repentance is required. I've speculated in that area as well, which comes from this condition being called Calling and Election Made Sure except in the certain circumstances mentioned.
I'm not sure that we who do not receive this blessing will ever have to endure the buffetings of Satan. I believe that the buffetings of Satan are different from the suffering spoken of in Alma 42 but that both types of suffring make up parts of the repentance process that would fall under conditions which would bring about a.) feelings sorrow for the sin and b.)making restitution for the sins. And yes I believe as McConkie said that such a situation would be very rare, but that in such a situation they would bear their own sins.
So if we can rephrase your original question:
"do you believe that someone who has received the promise given in D&C 132, who has not shed innocent blood, but has broken the covenants made in the temple, and arrives at the day of redemption without repenting first, will be exalted?"
My answer would be NO. They will be a son of Perdition.
You brought this up:
quote: By the way, I guess I might as well prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the punishment affixed to sins is "eternal as the life of a soul." This is found in Alma 42:16-- "Now, repentance could not come unto men except there were a punishment, which also was eternal as the life of the soul should be, affixed opposite to the plan of happiness, which was as eternal also as the life of the soul
OK, I've read it many times, but have always had a different interpretation of this phrase, but I see that you may be right. So thanks for that little piece of enlightenment. My interpretation was that the phrase "which also was eternal as the life of the soul" referred back to the "the plan of mercy" spoken of in v.15 or that the concepts of punishments/plan of mercy/happiness were as eternal as the life of the soul. I've never read it that the particular punishments under the law of justice were as eternal as the life of the soul...I'll have to consider that.
As to your summary:
quote: (A) As panamajones said, we cannot atone for our own sins. We will just have to agree to disagree on this topic, because I believe like panamajones does.
(B) In my opinion, we are judged, not only by what we did before we died, but by what we would do if we were allowed to continue life. It may just be that EVERYONE who receives their C&EMS is of such a character that if they don't commit the unpardonable sin, then they will eventually repent with all their heart, and be of celestial material. And thus, it wouldn't matter if they were killed immediately, because they will repent. Period. And this is basically what I believe. BUT, and here is the kicker, they actually MUST repent, and cannot pay for their own sins completely. And, if they aren't destroyed immediately, they might still become sons of perdition if they don't turn from their sins.
As for A. I didn't use the word atone...my whole speculative discussion had to do with paying the penalties of our sins under the law as discussed in Alma 42. I also indicated later in that post, that even if we could atone for our sins, that we would still be under the conditions that are spoken of in 2 Nephi 9: 9, that we could never overcome death on our own, and that we would still be lost. So I'm not sure we disagree as much as it would seem.
As for B. You and I are in complete agreement at least up until the word "period" I'll have to consider the remaining sentences, but you may be right. I, at least don't disagree enough to argue the points.
This may be a good place to bring up my example alluded to earlier. Richard R Lyman was odained an apostle on 7 APR 1918. I bring this up because at this period in time, we can assume that he had the SoHSP, since they were then performing that ordinance for not just apostles but stake presidents and high council members in stakes. He was excommunicated in 1943 as an apostle, was rebaptized in 1954, but to my knowledge did not have his temple blessings restored prior to his death in 1963. I can't give you a good reference here, but I read in an unimpeachable source that his blessings were restored, by proxy, posthumously, I believe by David O McKay. If he did not have the opportunity to repent in the spirit world, after he died, why would they have gone to the trouble to restore his blessings? This was a discretionary act, I don't believe these types of actions are done routinely, maybe I'm wrong here. Any additional information on this would be appreciated.
Zeta, thanks for having this discussion...being challenged in this way makes one confront and find support for their beliefs. I've learned much from your arguments and challenges. I've also learned that there is still very much to learn.
quote:"do you believe that someone who has received the promise given in D&C 132, who has not shed innocent blood, but has broken the covenants made in the temple, and arrives at the day of redemption without repenting first, will be exalted?"
My answer would be NO. They will be a son of Perdition.
Thank you. Much clearer. And while we may disagree about the method of repentance, I think we agree on the principle. panamajones may follow up on the "paying for sins vs. atoning for sins" question, but I'll leave that to him.
quote:I'm not sure that we who do not receive this blessing will ever have to endure the buffetings of Satan.
Something that I did, while trying to understand these scriptures, was look up the phrase "buffetings of Satan" everywhere it occured in the scriptures. It was a pretty enlightening search. Sometimes the phrase was applied to those who were leaders of the Church and who were excommunicated, and not necessarily those who had made their C&EMS.
Anyway, your last post cleared up a lot of issues. Looks like we finally found the common ground. Thanks for the discussion.
Your brother in the gospel, Zeta-Flux a.k.a. Pace Nielsen
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posted
Fine, drag me back in. I think we're mostly on the same page at this point.
quote:I'm surprised that panamajones hasn't responded yet.
Actually, I did begin to respons to LVChuck, but could not figure out how to respond to the following:
quote:The answer is—and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!—they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.
Elder McConkie is saying that those who have received their C&EMS are beyond the reach of Christ's atonement! He also states that adultery is a disqualifier, although this is not what 132:26 says. Since E. McConkie did not supply scripture references to his contentions, I am somewhat at a loss as to how to respond. Are these merely his opinions, in which I respectfully disagree, or are these based on scripture, in which case we have a whole new can of worms: How can you be washed clean again when the only means is no longer available? This is far beyond semantics.
quote:panamajones may follow up on the "paying for sins vs. atoning for sins" question, but I'll leave that to him.
How can I pass up such an invitation? I think we all agree but don't use the same words. Once again, there is no way to pay for sins or atone for sins yourself. Frankly, you have nothing to offer that the Lord will accept. There are no 40 lashes or 50 "Hail Marys" and then its done. No 25 years of hard labor or 100 years of "buffetings of Satan" and then everything is forgiven. No, the penalty is eternal, and will go on long past the time when the final star is extinguished. This is the fate of the Sons of Perdition. If there was an end to punishment independent of the mercies of Christ--if it were possible to pay for your own sins, then there would be no need for Christ. As Joseph Smith stated in the King Follet Discourse, "All will suffer until they obey Christ himself."
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But seriously, any thoughts about E. McConkie's contention that once you've had your C&EMS that Christ's atonement can no longer cleanse you and that another means is necessary? He ascribes this to the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, but I don't recall Joseph ever teaching this. Ideas?
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posted
panama...you didn't kill it...I'm just so worn out after the previous debate that I've sworn it off for a couple of days. My thought is that he's inferring things from v. 26. I think he's describing the different condition that recipients of this blessing are under, as per that verse. McConkie does say in his article, that the laws of repentance still apply, and that this would be a very unlikely, if not near impossible occurance. I think this sentence from his thoughts is also important:
quote: By that long course of obedience and trial which enabled them to gain so great a blessing the sanctified saints have charted a course and developed a pattern of living which avoids sin and encourages righteousness.
But the revelation was given for a reason, so the possibility must exist, and the conditions of forgiveness of sins commited after receiving the C&EMS are laid out in that verse.
My opinion, without having documentation, though, is that McConkie is also speaking as a recipient. As an apostle, we can pretty well assume that he was a recipient of this ordinance. So he might be speaking from his own experience, or instructions that he received regarding it; something by the way, which he would never speak of or even allude to.
posted
E. McConkie may indeed have recieved private instruction but in his excerpt he ascribes his contention that "they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them" to "the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith." I doubt he is referencing non-public revelations and teachings. At least I hope he is not because not being privy to such matters I would be wholly unable to discuss it. No, I am assuming E. McConkie is referring to something public if obscure.
Apparently in McConkie's view repentance still applies but these individuals are now able to pay for their own sins in some fashion. Moreover, it appears that in his view not only is murder unpardonable, but so is adultery. None of this is apparent in 132:26, so he's getting it from somewhere else.
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By the way, once someone repents, the suffering ends not because the penalty was paid by us or was non-eternal, but because the penalty was paid by Christ and we make use of the atonement through repentance.
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Apparently I didn't explain why I don't think vs. 26 is saying what you think it says, so I'll do so now. The verse is talking about what happens to those who commit very serious sins, and turn from their covenants, after having received great promises. But, fortunately, they have stopped short of committing the unpardonable sin. What is supposed to happen to such souls? First, they are destroyed in the flesh. They are cut off from the Church of God. Their temple blessings are revoked, they lose the gift of the Holy Ghost and the priesthood, and they can no longer partake of the sacrament worthily. Second, in this destroyed state, they are buffeted by Satan and his minions. They are left to suffer for their choices.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
