posted
[/Crossing arms & pursing lips] *steps in to close attribute*
Careful Jacare. You didn't actually close that tag due to the change in spelling. All posters following you would be forced to post "crossing arms & pursing lips" and that could lead to another zombie thread or worse. So I added the closing tag. (JK!)
[happy and in total agreement with Lumina on all counts] OK thread. Continue. Posts: 1911 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I'm thinking of going back to all the polygamy threads and adding that to my first post in each. he he he.
Posts: 1911 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Regarding that other thing we've been discussing:
I hesitate to say anything, because roper and Confutus have said pretty much everything I wanted to say, only better. But I would like to respond to this comment from Casi (I'm not trying to pick on you, honest . . .
quote:I would think that unless someone was perfect, they did contribute in SOME way, to the downfall of the marriage in that they didn't do EVERYTHING right.
The thing is, marriage isn't about doing everything right. When my wife and I met and fell in love we were two wounded souls. I was recovering from the temple marriage from Hell, she was also coming off of a relationship gone bad. We fell in love in spite of, perhaps because of, our imperfections. We've been married for 23 years as of last weekend, and it's been all about supporting and lifting each other up, nurturing each other through trials, mistakes and imperfections. We've struggled, we've endured, we've forgiven, we've overcome, things my first wife apparently wasn't equipped to do. If I thought, 23 years ago, that I would have to try again to do everything right, I would have run the other direction. But instead we've made it work (and I'm still hopelessly in love) because we're both committed, not to doing everything right, but to doing whatever it takes to make it work.
I can be a real dope sometimes. But she loves me anyway.
Posts: 6025 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: ...If you were to devote all your efforts to amending whatever your errors were or might have been, and the Lord were to be merciful and gracious, accept all your efforts and repentance, and offer you a chance for a new and better start, do you still think you would feel a failure?
Yes. Sinning and then repenting is (in my opinion) never as-good-as (much less preferable to) not sinning in the first place. Besides, even obtaining a personal forgiveness for any wrong-doing does not eradcate the Eternal consequences for anyone else in the family...
I have a hard time grasping how I can make something better if I believe that "no other sucess can compensate" for that failure.
To me, my getting a divorce would be akin to the sheding of innocent blood - it would be very hard to recover from, and it's effects would be on-going regardless of repentance.
Posts: 1237 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Regardless of ones personal feelings about divorce, there are some facts to be considered. If I shed innocent blood , I am no longer able to hold a temple recommend. If I commit adultery, I am not welcome in the temple until I have repented fully. If I steal from my employer I am not welcome in the temple.
But if I find myself divorced despite my efforts to uphold my marriage, I can still go to the temple. It is a sorrow, surely. My own parents divorced and even though I have never met people more unsuited to one another and their marriage was miserable, I still grieve about it a little. I would love to "go home" to visit. I live with those effects.
I am so grateful to have the atonement and the knowledge that God's grace is sufficient even for me. If the Lord offers to remember it no more, I have no right to appoint myself a superior judge and cling to that sorrow and guilt.
Surely he hath borne our grief and carried our sorrows... He offers to, we should let him.
Posts: 8099 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I think this comment, by Janey on the 1st page, is one of the most succinctly wise things I've read in awhile:
quote:Our culture is so sensitive about making sure everyone feels good about themselves that maybe we sometimes lose sight of the fact that admitting that we blew it is the first step to recovering.
That is exactly true, and I believe it's wrecking us. Kids don't get disciplined any more, they don't get encouraged to exceed their comfort zone, etc. But that's a different discussion.
I'd like to clarify the notion put forth on the front page that people need lots of time before they get married. Really it depends on the person.
I knew my wife for 30 days when we got engaged; we were married 2 months later. Was it a mistake? No way. It was easy to make the commitment when the Spirit confirmed the decision so strongly.
My wife's parents divorced when she was in high school. Afterwards, her mom met a guy over the internet (LDS singles) where they chatted for awhile. Then she flew out to meet him. 3 days later, they were engaged. At the end of their 3rd day together, the Spirit whispered to her, "When he asks, say YES." She just said, "What?!" Then the Spirit repeated it. He asked. She said yes. They have an awesome marriage.
I just relate this because I hope no one will judge anyone else for getting married quickly.
posted
Dh and I knew each other 3 weeks when we got engaged. We married 6 months later. It'll be 28 yrs April 15. And boy have we hit some nice bumps in the road, nothing that would cause either one of us to lose our membership. Just the everyday bumps, but we learned that we each handle the same situation differently. We learned to communicate in each others' "language" style. The key is to always work to improve yourself and not the other person.
Are we the same people we were 28 yrs ago? I hope not, I hope we've matured and grown spiritually.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I may be opeining a can of worms here, and I truly do not mean to. My apologies in advance.
I had a bishop whose wife died in an automobile accident. He was told by the Stake President that he needed to be married and that he would have a years time do to so. When the year was closing, this wonderful bishop declined re-marriage even though many wonderful and eligible sisters were available. He was released from the calling of the bishop and 6 years later, he did remarry a sweet and lovely lady.
Does Elder Nelson have to married to be in his calling? I do not know. How long did he know his bride? Again, I do not know. All I do know is that if they want to do this, then fine. Besides, when I need help and advice I go to my friends. Let's face it, Elder Nelson hangs with some pretty 'powerful' friends and probably got some good advice. I had known my first husband (now the "X") for 4 years prior to marrying him and stayed with him for 20 years. Hick and I dated for 6 weeks before eloping to the JP. (BTW, I had been divorced for 8 weeks....no breaking of my covenants while married.) My bishop is looking forward to helping us get sealed to each other.
Posts: 2121 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I don't think they have to be. It is just viewed as highly beneficial. I think that Richard G. Scott's wife died a few years ago and he hasn't been interested in getting married.
Posts: 95 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted April 08, 2006 04:42 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- confutus asked, quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...If you were to devote all your efforts to amending whatever your errors were or might have been, and the Lord were to be merciful and gracious, accept all your efforts and repentance, and offer you a chance for a new and better start, do you still think you would feel a failure? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes. Sinning and then repenting is (in my opinion) never as-good-as (much less preferable to) not sinning in the first place. Besides, even obtaining a personal forgiveness for any wrong-doing does not eradcate the Eternal consequences for anyone else in the family...
I have a hard time grasping how I can make something better if I believe that "no other sucess can compensate" for that failure.
To me, my getting a divorce would be akin to the sheding of innocent blood - it would be very hard to recover from, and it's effects would be on-going regardless of repentance.
If "sinning and repenting" were "never as good as" not sinning in the first place, Satan's plan would have been the correct one. The Lord is gracious enough to allow us to make mistakes, even severe mistakes, and yet learn from them. True, it is foolish and dangerous to presume that we may knowingly sin and the Lord will forgive us anyway. This is a deeper error and requires a deeper and harder repentance than ignorantly yielding to common temptations. We can only answer for our own mistakes. It is impossible for us to repent of someone else's sins, and inappropriate to try to bear the guilt and blame for decisions that were not our own. The Savior has already done this. We are not the best judges of how much our errors may have contributed to a divorce: We are too prone to either underestimate or overestimate our own guilt and lack the knowledge of all the various decisions involved. This is the province of the Lord to judge. Likewise, it is beyond our power to deal with eternal consequences. It is best to leave these to the Lord, and not underestimate his power to heal even our worst blunders. Is it not pride, to set ourselves up as better judges than the Lord of our errors and refuse to accept his forgiveness?
quote: Besides, even obtaining a personal forgiveness for any wrong-doing does not eradcate the Eternal consequences for anyone else in the family...
No one but Heavenly Father and Jesus really know what the eternal consequences are for the others in the family. Remember, they all have their own choices to make, and their own lives to live.
I don't know how many times I've apologized to my children for the situation they were put into, and their rough lives, because of the divorce and its aftermath. I've felt guilty for years. Then, one day, one of my daughters told me something that reminded me that we really don't know the consequences, nor do we really understand or appreciate the working of the Lord. She said to me, Mom, I came to earth to learn by experience, and if all this hadn't happened, I wouldn't have moved out West, I probably wouldn't have joined the church, and I wouldn't have met my husband. They have a very happy marriage, have been sealed in the temple, and had their little girl sealed to them, and are expecting a baby boy in September.
My other daughter has chosen another path, another religion. She's had some rough times, was separated from her husband for several months, but, with counseling, she and her husband are back together, they are learning to walk a Christian path together with family prayer and scripture study, attending church together, working together to raise their son in a Christian home. I have a lot of hope for them.
I have one inactive (LDS) , rebellious, almost hostile son, who resists every effort to bring him back to the fold. He's divorced, with no contact with his daughter. That's sad.
My other sons are non-members. Two of them are happily married, and successful in their lives and careers. The youngest one is still single, but very successful in his career, and happy with his life. He's always telling me how grateful he is that I brought him into this life.
It's all about choices. We parents do affect our children, and divorce is a traumatic situation for them, but I'm not sure how accountable we are for their eternal consequences, or their choices. And, as my daughter pointed out to me, they are here to learn by experience, just as we all are, and we don't know just what tailor-made lessons God has planned for us, or for our children.
Posts: 1305 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I believe you are both making slight mistakes. Please let me lay out my thoughts.
I agree with GishFarm that it is better not to sin than to sin. The key though, is that it is better to live in a world were we will sin than to live in a world were we are compelled not to, or not given agency. I think this is what Confutus was trying to say.
On the other hand, GishFarm said, "Besides, even obtaining a personal forgiveness for any wrong-doing does not eradcate the Eternal consequences for anyone else in the family..." But, consequences for our choices here are only eternal when we make them such. Our family members have the ability, just as we do, to accept the atonement of Christ, and have all sadnesses removed and be filled with joy. Yes, our actions have consequences. But Christ can make right what we have made wrong. To believe otherwise puts the power of Christ's atonement at naught.
I hope this is received as it was meant (not really as correction, but presenting some ideas possibly not considered as of yet).
posted
RE: Marrying too fast, my wife and I got engaged VERY quickly ... and then stayed engaged for a year Basically, we were a long-distance relationship, and while we loved each other, we hadn't spent much time actually near each other. So, as fiancés, we moved around the corner from each other, did everything together, and got much more used to being a part of each other's lives before actually making the plunge.
I think our marriage had worked out as idyllically as we could have hoped, and I personally suspect that it's been much easier for us because we spent so much time and effort preparing for it.
Posts: 806 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Sorry if I am beating dead horse - I've been out-of sorts for a bit. I think Confutus' previous post bears repeating. And I totally agree that once I have gone through a divorce, I need not mope around and feel badly about it - it will be hard enough already. On the other hand, if I haven't gone through a divorce I do want to articulate reasons to avoid it...
Confutus gracefully said,
quote: We can only answer for our own mistakes. It is impossible for us to repent of someone else's sins, and inappropriate to try to bear the guilt and blame for decisions that were not our own. The Savior has already done this. We are not the best judges of how much our errors may have contributed to a divorce: We are too prone to either underestimate or overestimate our own guilt and lack the knowledge of all the various decisions involved. This is the province of the Lord to judge. Likewise, it is beyond our power to deal with eternal consequences. It is best to leave these to the Lord, and not underestimate his power to heal even our worst blunders. Is it not pride, to set ourselves up as better judges than the Lord of our errors and refuse to accept his forgiveness?
I totally agree! In my view however it is the Lord (through his annointed) who declared that though we can be forgiven, the consequences of divorce cannot be rectified by us in this life.
Many sins I can make recompense for. Divorce is not one of them. If I get divorced I will live my life knowing that I can never make it better my whole earthly life. And the attonment will not force my spouse and I back together in the next life either. Christ has paid the price for my sins, but neither the consequences nor my personal responsibility has been alleviated.
Posts: 1237 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
In regard to Elder Nelson and Wendy Watson (whom I really admire, along with Sheri Dew)... Wendy is in her early 50's, never been married (are men intimidated by Wendy and Sheri Dew?)... if it were me and I had a chance to marry a decent, intelligent, blessed LDS man like Elder Nelson... an apostle no less... I'd jump at the chance... there is a big age difference between them (Elder Nelson being 82). So I would surmise that their marriage has a lot to do with shared beliefs, goals, etc., vs. the romantic notions of younger individuals... I'm not saying there isn't "love" involved, but that their reasons may transend what we normally think of with starry eyes, etc., etc. Think of the eternal blessings Wendy will have, married to someone we sustain as a prophet, seer and revelator each general conference... I notice her travelling with him as his wife as he carries out his responsibilities... what a wonderful blessing for them both. The fact that they married less than a year after the death of Elder Nelson's first wife is irrelevant. The Garden Girl
Posts: 160 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
In regard to Elder Nelson and Wendy Watson (whom I really admire, along with Sheri Dew)... Wendy is in her early 50's, never been married (are men intimidated by Wendy and Sheri Dew?)... if it were me and I had a chance to marry a decent, intelligent, blessed LDS man like Elder Nelson... an apostle no less... I'd jump at the chance... there is a big age difference between them (Elder Nelson being 82). So I would surmise that their marriage has a lot to do with shared beliefs, goals, etc., vs. the romantic notions of younger individuals... I'm not saying there isn't "love" involved, but that their reasons may transend what we normally think of with starry eyes, etc., etc. Think of the eternal blessings Wendy will have, married to someone we sustain as a prophet, seer and revelator each general conference... I notice her travelling with him as his wife as he carries out his responsibilities... what a wonderful blessing for them both. The fact that they married less than a year after the death of Elder Nelson's first wife is irrelevant. The Garden Girl
Posts: 160 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Well said.
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