quote:I am thoroughly enjoying this thread in which you bring up excellent scriptural references.
I don't know why you are so surprised. After all, unlike Zeta-Flux, I got a much more rounded education, having graduated from the "Center For Kids Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too."
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quote: To me, you have come across as "here is my interpretation of these scriptures, the prophets are all wrong in the way they interpret them, everyone in the church is wrong in the way they have been interpreting them for, well, ever, and I am right."
Well no wonder you are taking this so personally. If I was indeed asserting all of the blasphemous things you ascribe to me I would be worthy of censure indeed. Let me explicitly state that I have not once said, "Prophet so-and-so was wrong and I am right." Aside from clarifying myself repeatedly while trying to enjoy the exchange between noel and confutus, I believe the majority of my posts have consisted of scripture references.
quote: "Oh, and Bruce McConkie was wrong in everything he ever said or wrote."
Now you are being silly, but I understand the value of hyperbole in making a point so I'll let it go. You might be interested to know that I have great respect for McConkie's "The Messiah Series" and count it as one of the main reasons my testimony before my mission many years ago went from being 2D to 3D as it were. I'm really starting to wonder whose posts you have been reading to think I'm saying what you accuse me of. Bizarre.
quote: But I am sure I am reading you wrong, so I will drop it.
quote: But do I at least get a prize for bringing up the two scriptures you were waiting for someone to bring up?
I felt like I fell into a trap.
Dramatics don't become you, PF. No one was trying to trap anyone. I felt sure someone would bring up Mosiah 3:7 and D&C 19:16-19 because for me they used to be the core of my testimony. What I wanted was to see if anyone was willing to think beyond two references to the rest of the standard works and if so, engage in a discussion with me.
It is okay if two people disagree. It doesn't mean they have to dislike each other or accuse each other of absurd statements they never made. Thanks for your time, though.
Confutus, thank you for your response. It's a breath of fresh air to have someone mention the scriptures instead of conspiracy theories involving my alleged motives. I particularly liked your reference to 3 Ne. 11:11 which says:
"And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning." (3 Ne. 11:11)
Interestingly, I recently stumbled across this scripture. It is had in only one of the four gospels but it jumped out at me. In John 18, as Christ is about to be arrested, Peter cuts off the ear of Malchus in an attempt to prevent Christ's being carried away. Here is what Christ said to Peter:
"Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" (John 18:11)
Doesn't that seem to be Jesus saying, "I have to drink the cup of the atonement, and my arrest is a necessary step towards that cup; don't try to prevent it. It is God's will." Which would imply he had not yet drunk out of the bitter cup of the atonement. I don't know, just a thought I had recently. What do you make of it?
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According to the witness of the scriptures, the agony in the Garden was unique.
But that said, it's not as if the prospect of being scourged and crucified was sugar water, either. I wouldn't say that the atonement took place in the garden exclusively, or on the cross, exclusively. Both were part of it.
I seem to recall that Talmadge, in "Jesus the Christ" offered the opinion that the agonies in the Garden returned while Jesus was on the Cross. While I know of no scriptural word on that particular subject, I'm entirely willing to believe that the cry "My God, My god, why hast thou forsaken me?" signified that he also suffered the spiritual death of separation from God.
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Haven't been around here long, have you? I'm all about me. And Drama. Ask anyone.
So, I'm confused. You have studied this for 3.5 years. Yet you say:
quote:Let me explicitly state that I have not once said, "Prophet so-and-so was wrong and I am right."
quote:Now you are being silly, but I understand the value of hyperbole in making a point so I'll let it go. You might be interested to know that I have great respect for McConkie's "The Messiah Series" and count it as one of the main reasons my testimony before my mission many years ago went from being 2D to 3D as it were. I'm really starting to wonder whose posts you have been reading to think I'm saying what you accuse me of. Bizarre.
I'm saying bizarre things? Let's put the 500 lb Gorilla out on the table, shall we? (Oh wait, I think that is a mixed metaphore. Oh well.) So, while you have not "explicitly" said Bruce McConke was wrong, you certainly "implicitly" said it.
It took me about 3.5 seconds to find this: (noel: Feel free to skip to the end of the quotes. I know it drives you nuts. On second thought, go ahead and read them all. )
"The Promised Messiah" Page 2:
quote: And the most transcendent event in his entire eternal existence, the most glorious single happening from creation's dawn to eternity's endless continuance, the crowning work of his infinite goodness—such took place in a garden called Gethsemane, outside a city called Jerusalem, when he, tabernacled in the flesh, bore the weight of the sins of all those who believe in his name and obey his gospel.
quote: This atoning sacrifice; this redemption of the world; this most transcendent of all events from creation's dawn to the endless ages of eternity; this shedding of the blood of a God, which was to occur in Gethsemane and on Calvary; this ransom paid for man, for all forms of life, and for the very earth itself all this rests on two foundations.
quote:The fall was part of his plan; he designed and decreed it from the beginning. Its gloom is to turn into joy and gladness as both temporal and spiritual death are abolished in Gethsemane and on Calvary.
quote: From all of this it is apparent that those in Israel who were spiritually enlightened knew and understood that their sacrificial ordinances were in similitude of the coming death of Him whose name they used to worship the Father, and that it was not the blood on their altars that brought remission of sins, but the blood that would be shed in Gethsemane and on Calvary.
quote: Forgiveness is available because Christ the Lord sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane as he bore the incalculable weight of the sins of all who ever had or ever would repent. Forgiveness is available because "God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance." (Alma 7:13.)
quote:It is our Lord's divine Sonship, his status as God's Son; it is his atoning sacrifice; it is the burden he bore in Gethsemane; it is his death upon the cross; it is the fact that he voluntarily laid down his life that he might take it again—these are the things that enabled him to take upon himself the transgressions of his people.
quote:A long, wearisome road runs from Eden to Gethsemane, from the garden in which the promise of a Redeemer was first given to the garden in which the promised redemption was wrought.
quote:That is to say, water, blood, and spirit were all present and played their part in his atoning sacrifice. As to the presence of blood, the meaning is clear. Our Lord sweat great drops of blood from every pore as he bowed in agony in Gethsemane; then again, on the cross, his blood was shed as Roman steel pierced his flesh.
quote:2. They were to take of the blood of the lamb and sprinkle it upon the doorposts of their houses, having this promise as a result: "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you," signifying that the blood of Christ, which should fall as drops in Gethsemane and flow in a stream from a pierced side as he hung on the cross, would cleanse and save the faithful; and that, as those in Israel were saved temporally because the blood of a sacrificial lamb was sprinkled on the doorposts of their houses, so the faithful of all ages would wash their garments in the blood of the Eternal Lamb and from him receive an eternal salvation.
quote: Then Jesus went to Gethsemane for his atoning ordeal
quote:In a garden called Gethsemane, outside Jerusalem's walls, in agony beyond compare, he took upon himself the sins of all men on conditions of repentance.
From nearly the first page to nearly the last he repeats over and over.
And that is just "Promised Messiah." "Mortal Messiah" has nearly twice as many similar quotes. This all seems so very opposite of your assertion that the atoning sacrifice all took place ONLY on the cross.
"The Messiah" series drove me nuts. "Say in 500 words what can be said in 50." And to continuously quote yourself, to me, was just odd. "As it says in Mormon Doctrine..." But be that as it may, I plowed through them. Bruce McConkie was a HUGE proponent of blood atonement (that being one of his "controversial sections" in "Mormon Doctrine.") And he was a HUGE believer in the atonement taking place at least partially, IF NOT MOSTLY, in Gethsemane, with the keys to the resurrection taking place on Calvary.
So how am I to reconcile your two statements? How am I using hyperbole? Was Bruce McConkie a Prophet of God? Was he wrong in his writings?
CK, I certainly understand why you believe the shedding of blood and dying on the cross were essential to the atonement. The scriptures are full of references to it. I have no problem with that.
I am having a hard time understanding, though, why you want to discount the Garden of Gethsemane as part of the atonement. The modern prophets have said it was, repeatedly (and what part of their job is more important than testifying of Christ and making sure we understand the atonement, I don't know); the scriptures also refer to the garden as part of the suffering and sacrifice. The fact that you've made a point to say, "Well, there were only TWO verses that say that," makes me wonder how many you think would be required for it to be true.
Why is it so important to discount the scriptures and prophets who say Gethsemane was part of the atonement? Why do you want to believe that it took place ONLY on the cross, that the "shedding of blood" meant ONLY that shed on the cross?
I mean, you keep bringing up references to his blood being shed on the cross, but those don't really tell us anything new; they don't convince me of anything new, because I already knew his blood was shed on the cross and he died there and that was the culmination of the atonement. So the dozens of scriptures that talk about the cross and him dying and his blood being shed do nothing to do away with the other scriptures and prophetic statements that Gethsemane was also part of the atonement.
Do you have any references that say the atonement was NOT entered into in Gethsemane, that Gethsemane was not part of the atonement but was just ... what ... a place of preparation and prayer? In other words, do you have any references that would show the prophets' testimonies and the two scriptures previously mentioned were false?
To me, all the references in the scriptures and by modern prophets make far more sense when added up to mean that the atonement began in Gethsemane and culminated with his death on the cross.
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quote: I do not believe those priesthood keys extend to scriptural interpretation.
The Seminary teaching materials disagree with you. Those materials are prepared under the imprimatur of the First Presidency and are used to teach the youth internationally. Please see the roles of a prophet teaching notes included for the Isaiah chapters in 2 Nephi. Also related to this is a recent Sunday school lesson on Prophetic roles.
Just for myself, I having trouble understanding why one would want to minimize the events in the Garden. Many Christian belief systems focus on the Crucifixion and don't quite explore the agony in the Garden. Understanding the significance of Jesus' suffering there sets the LDS belief system apart from many others. Understanding Gethsemane was a watershed moment in developing my testimony of the Atonement. Knowing that he was dragging around my sins, my hurts, my disappointments, my less than Saintly behaviors while he was arrested, bound, scourged, scorned, reviled, dragged back and forth from court to court,sentenced, forced to carry his cross, and then the final hours--and He did not let my sins go, no not one, until it was time. Knowing this, isn't minimizing Gethsemane dishonoring His suffering on our behalf?
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I believe, very strongly, that the physical, and spiritual suffering of the Mortal Christ reached a new level of intensity and power in Gethsemene. That this is when He truly took upon him the weight of the sins of the world in a way that was physically - and spiritually - agonizing. That everything done on the way to the cross, and on the cross itself, would have had no eternal significance if what had happened in Gethsemane had not happened.
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CK, I'm not understanding the foundation of your thinking. I've only heard thoughts like these coming from Catholics, and perhaps other non-LDS denominations.
I know I was never taught anything like this by my parents (I was BIC child). I was never taught this by any of my primary teachers. Nor, any of my quorum or youth leaders. Nether have I seen this taught as an adult. Neither in class nor in any conference talk.
So, where is the foundation? Are you asserting that you're right and everybody else is wrong? Or do you have any other person who's taught this, the more recent the better. (As you know, the Journal of Discourse is not exactly reliable).
Hm. I am wondering how "no-go" gets read as "keep it up".
While Preach my Gospel and For the Strength of Youth both specifically state that the atonement took place in the garden and on the cross, the last word in this thread is going to President Gordon B Hinckley.
quote:“We honor His birth. But without His death that birth would have been but one more birth. It was the Redemption, which He worked out in the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the cross of Calvary, which made His gift immortal, universal, and everlasting. His was a great atonement for the sins of all mankind. He is the Resurrection and the Life, ‘the firstfruits of them that slept’ (1 Corinthians 15:20). Because of Him all men will be raised from the grave.
Gordon B. Hinckley, “Inspirational Thoughts,” Liahona, Feb 2007, 2–6
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