quote: I was encouraged to ask questions rather than told to shut up and be spoon fed doctrines
Not quite sure what that has to do with what I wrote, Kazbert. All I am saying is that it is probably a good idea to be extremely wary of Satan because the whole schtick about him is deceit.
I would think that similar questions emerge about the role of Judas.
Posts: 1475 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Not quite sure what that has to do with what I wrote, Kazbert.
I've noticed that on this board, the oblique criticism is the preferred method of censure. Usually it takes the form of a first-person soliloquy about some principle or other that does not pertain directly to the topic.
I've seen quite a few aimed my way.
I appreciate them for exactly what they are. And the irony of this post is not lost on me. Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2012
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posted
I do want to point out, however, ON TOPIC, that as an interpretive matter, I take the character of Satan in the scriptures at his word. The character of Satan in the scriptures does not lie except when he directly contradicts God.
For example - "Ye shall not surely die, for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
The lie is "ye shall not surely die." Of course, depending on the translation, it could also have been "you won't die suddenly." In which case, that would not have been a lie.
ScruffyDog is correct, though - best to avoid conversing with Satan at all possible. He's the best salesman there is.
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posted
Speaking of salesmen, I just had one show up at my door this morning selling cleaner. (In spite of the fact that I live in an area with a Green River ordinance.) He was extremely aggressive with his sales pitch. I dismissed him without further argument.
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posted
As I understand it, agency is the gift from God to act on our own behalf (be agents, to act for ourselves and not just be acted upon). Satan did indeed try to prevent us from receiving that gift (Moses 4:3). This gift was given to Adam in the garden (see Moses 7:32). All of us receive this gift, including little children. We had this gift in the premortal realm (D&C 29:36) and it is how Satan turned many against the Father.
Moral agency is a further gift that God gives us when we arrive at the years of accountability. Sometimes the scriptures use agency to mean moral agency. As we progress, we can be given more agency, more ability to act in larger spheres of influence.
It is my understanding that agency is free-will, the power to act for ourselves. Without it, we don't really exist (D&C 93:30).
posted
I'm of the view that Agency isn't something that can be given. It can only be taken away, or restricted.
Posts: 944 | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
I think my view of agency was spelled out somewhere.
In any event, here's an addition to my position.
Intelligences, by their nature, of necessity have free will. An intelligence without free will is not an intelligence at all.
quote:intelligence (n.) late 14c., "faculty of understanding," from O.Fr. intelligence (12c.), from L. intelligentia, intellegentia "understanding, power of discerning; art, skill, taste," from intelligentem (nom. intelligens) "discerning," prp. of intelligere "to understand, comprehend," from inter- "between" (see inter-) + legere "choose, pick out, read" (see lecture). Meaning superior understanding, sagacity" is from early 15c. Sense of "information, news" first recorded mid-15c., especially "secret information from spies" (1580s). Intelligence quotient first recorded 1921 (see I.Q.).
That's just what the word means.
Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2012
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quote:I am intrigued. How do you interpret Moses 7:32?
As an early (1830) step along the way in inspired understanding leading up to the revealed information concerning man's premortal - and eternal - essential existence, as well as our relationship with God.
I take the elements granted in Moses 7:32 at man's creation in this version of the story, and adapt them to what is known from later understanding of God's relationship with mankind, and the nature of 'creation'.
God guided men, led them towards knowledge, and assisted them in taking full advantage of their inherent agency.
That helps. Thanks. I view it more as a father, seeing a child come of age, give him more responsibility. "Thou mayest choose for thyself" or, in other words, "I give you agency in the matter."
quote: but as his job is the Prince of Lies, it's probably safer not to get into any conversations with him.
scruffy: log is correct -- I perceived your comment to be an oblique criticism, along the lines that discussing my speculation was being equated to "getting into a conversation with [Satan]." If that was not you rmeaning, I sincerly apologize, but I am then left completely mystified as to the relevance of your comment.
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posted
Kazbert, no need for an apology. No criticism was implied at all; I am normally a lot more direct if I don't agree with something, as Log knows. The reason for my post is that it is fine to discuss the idea, and I have considered similar ideas myself. I have often wondered whether there could be a redemption even for Satan. I certainly have no problem with the idea being discussed.
The issue that concerns me is that we don't start downgrading the danger that Satan poses us. I just wanted to make sure that in all of the discussion, we didn't lose sight of the central fact about Satan: he is the Prince of Lies and getting into conversation with him only tends to work out if you are Jesus Christ. Conversation amongst ourselves is fine.
posted
There was a time when I attended a very liberal ward. And one day one of the counselors decided as the lesson that he would testify of the existence of Satan. If you think that you're safe from him in church, try spending an entire class period talking about him. Or better yet, don't and just take my word for it.
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posted
Someone on another board pointed out something - the strength of the temptations of the devil are directly proportional to the strength of the spiritual experiences we have received, or are going to. If, for example, we are called up, chosen, and behold God on his throne surrounded by numberless concourses of angels, with the Son at his right hand, it stands to reason we shall also behold Satan, either immediately before, or immediately after, that experience.
I remember how Joseph was bound, and almost yielded to being destroyed by the devil just before he was delivered by the power of God. I remember how Jesus was baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and afterwards was left to be directly tempted by the devil. I remember Moses speaking with God face-to-face and afterwards being left to confront the devil. And, lastly, I remember my own experiences.
And it is very interesting to note who echoes his words, and who executes his works.
posted
And just think about all the difficulties that crop up just before convert baptism, before first trip to the Temple for endowments etc. Seems pretty clear to me that Satan takes every opportunity to slip a blade into the cracks.
However, I fully accept that may just be because that is the job he was given. He is still very dangerous.
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quote: as the lesson that he would testify of the existence of Satan. If you think that you're safe from him in church, try spending an entire class period talking about him.
A PH/RS meeting and Sunday School are certainly not the appropriate forum for such a lengthy discussion on that topic. But I think we take the aversion to speaking about Lucifer too far. The aversion can be so strong it comes across as superstition to me (like “He Who Must Not Be Named” in the Harry Potter books). The very first miracle performed in this dispensation was the prophet, Joseph Smith, Jr., casting out a devil. Talk about a great way to bring a room to a long awkward silence!
posted
Well, here's another thing. I view Satan sympathetically.
I know he would destroy me, you, and the whole world if he had a chance, just as a rabid dog would. But I think I understand what motivated him.
Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2012
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posted
Leaving aside the physiological and physics definitions, which I am fairly sure you did not intend, we have the following definitions of sympathetically:
quote: 1. characterized by, proceeding from, exhibiting, or feeling sympathy; sympathizing; compassionate: a sympathetic listener. 2. acting or affected by, of the nature of, or pertaining to a special affinity or mutual relationship; congenial: With their many similar tastes, he found her a most sympathetic companion. 3. looking upon with favor (often followed by to or toward ): She is sympathetic to the project.
(via dictionary.com)
I think you would be rightly insulted if I suggested that either (2) or (3) is what you meant. Correct me if I'm wrong.
That leaves (1). Do you mean that you feel compassion for Satan? For example, that it grieves you to see what Satan has become? I think I could understand that, but I want to be sure that's what you mean, or get clear on what it is you do mean.
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Seriously, Sympathy for the Devil just came up on my playlist. Someone's got a spycam in here. ![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
