posted
I know it's subjective, but what do you consider to be the "best books" mentioned in this verse: "And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith."?
Is it only scriptures, or church books? Does the list include some classics or even modern novels? What about books on the arts or sciences? I'm looking for opinions.
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posted
Anything that inspires or teaches useful and applicable truths.
I include books on history, scientific principles, and even many novels (like Les Mis) among the "Best books".
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posted
I reject out of hand the idea that it only includes scripture. The context strongly suggests this was an admonition to extend the Saints' circle of education outside the Church per se.
There is obvious value in books that contain practical knowledge useful for the temporal preservation and prosperity of the Saints. It takes a fair amount of architectural skill to build a temple that will stand through the ages of time, as the Saints discovered in the Salt Lake Valley when they found that the first foundation for the temple had cracked and had to be relaid.
There is also value in books that expand the intellect. A lot of science and math is not necessarily immediately useful, but darned if it doesn't get me thinking.
Finally, there are books besides scripture that expand the moral imagination. Tolkien is high on my list of writers of such books, but he's hardly alone.
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posted
The best books are only the Scriptures, Church manuals, and doctrinal commentary by General Authorities and their descendants.
You thought I was serious, didn't you?
There is no master list of the "best" books which holds for all humans. Some people get enlightenment in the darnedest places.
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posted
During the 1960's, for seven years the RS curriculum was "Out of the Best Books". The "manual" was anthologies of good works of art, chosen and edited by the church curriculum office, in several media, that as child I used as the basis for many a school project.
On the secular level, there is a certain body of knowledge that one has to have to be considered "well-educated". True, there is debate on the margins, particularly about how modern works are assimilated, or not, into the group of if-you-don't-know-about-this-you'll-have-difficulty-understanding-your-world.
The other D&C scripture that tells members to learn about geology, and history, and everything else I think precludes any idea that the scriptures and manuals are the only or even actual source of "best books". Considering how many times I have found factual errors in the stories in the church manuals, I'd go so far as to say that they cannot be considered among the best books, generally.
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posted
pnr, I remember loving those manuals when I was a kid. Great art, great stories. I wish sometimes that we could do things like that again in RS. Or have more "intellectual" or "scholarly" articles in the Ensign like they did in the 60s and 70s. Oh, well.
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posted
Most everyone does read books which are not the best - and the scriptures do not describe any specific books as being "the best."
The education which the Lord commends to us in the D&C is not the practical education undertaken with an eye to a degree and a subsequent career to cash the degree in on.
I don't want to put words in your mouth or otherwise misunderstand you. Are you suggesting that geology is not a topic worthy of serious study?
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quote:I don't want to put words in your mouth or otherwise misunderstand you. Are you suggesting that geology is not a topic worthy of serious study?
I am baldly stating that the scriptures do not specifically enjoin the study of geology.
I personally do not view the study of geology as having any worth in my pursuit of knowledge of the things of righteousness, because it does not further my goals in striving to be one with God. As Elder Packer says, not all true things are useful.
Your results may vary. Some people need to know geology for the purposes of bringing in a paycheck. For them, the study of geology is a positive thing. Yet others use geological data mingled with the philosophies of men as a club with which to beat others who don't believe according to their whims. For these, geology is a negative thing.
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posted
Wondering just what Elder Packer said, tried doing a search on "Elder Packer not all true things are useful" . I didn't see what was alluded to, and yet the quote sounds familiar. Wondering if it was more along the lines of "as useful."
Posts: 10857 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Without wishing to get contentious, particularly because geologists and archaeologists view each other the way a rottweiler and a pit bull look at each other, geology does have a very useful purpose.
posted
Thinking in terms of what might be useful knowledge assuming progression to a world builder. Seems to me geology would be very handy. But, then again archaeology, and social sciences would be useful in terms of planning family structures and teaching spirit children. Not to mention when to release knowledge and when to have a cataclysm reducing knowledge.
On the other hand, I always wonder of computer skills will be handy in the next life. Wondering if there are some things so dull that even God says, let the computer do that.
Or maybe, God is like Teddy Roosevelt, when Teddy said give it the vice president he has nothing to do. For instance, maybe Hitler will be tasked with watching some speck of dust in an oort cloud. Posts: 10857 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
That's why I couldn't find it, it's a BYU studies article. And the context is that he was talking about church history. And most especially about the foibles of early members.
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quote:What principle? That we should ignore those truths we don't find particularly useful?
If that's how *you* read *Elder Packer*, then I suppose the answer to *your* question is yes.
If that's an intentional misrepresentation of what Elder Packer said, then I suppose the answer to your question is "come back when you're ready to get serious."
If you're trying to imply that I am saying "we" "should" "ignore truths" "we" "don't find particularly useful," then I suppose the answer to your question is, again, "come back when you're ready to get serious."
posted
How about we just all take the last sentence of the Thirteenth Article of Faith and apply it to ourselves? And know that we each have things to learn, so we'll all take it differently, because we all have different strengths to put to use. That way, we're all covered, and contention is avoided.
FBN, if Gary Gilmore was given a task after he was executed, as stated in an interview in The Executioner's Song, I don't find it too much of a stretch that Hitler would have something to do. (How many Oort Clouds are out there, anyway?)
How am I to take you seriously if you don't stand behind your interpretation of those whom you quote?
What I observe is that proffered a quote, and you did so in a context implying studying geology (perhaps the intent was general information gathered by man) was not useful. But, when asked to clarify what meaning you were intending, there's a retreat by declaring, I didn't say it, they said it.
The effect is a discussion terminator. The original author is not here to discuss intent. And since there is no ownership of an apparent interpretation it would like unto discussing with the wind. You have turned yourself into nothing more than wind, IMO.
Posts: 10857 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I have two thoughts about that. I hope you don't mind if I share them.
1. I'm not here to sell myself nor my ideas and understandings to you. I figure the honest at heart will accept me at face value, while those whose concern is not so much the truth will not. I don't care to draw away followers after myself, and I'm not seeking to be a leader among men. Neither am I here to make myself popular. Neither do I seek to be a counselor to anyone other than those over whom I have been given stewardship.
I am not trying to be taken seriously, in other words. I am looking for those who will know me for who and what I am, with whom I can share what I think in a faith-promoting context, and from whom I can gain similar knowledge, that we may be edified together and mutually built up in Christ until the perfect day when the full light of the Spirit of God rests in our hearts and we see eye-to-eye. If that's not you, then that's not you.
2. I simply put out the teachings of the prophets and let others draw what conclusions they may from them. In this particular example, I take Elder Packer to be saying, to me, that I don't have to concern myself with every fact in existence. Great. I wasn't going to anyways. What I want is to know the things of God, the hidden mysteries which are known only by revelation through faithfulness and beneficial works. Does geology get me there? No. It is, to me, a complete and utter waste of time - I don't work for the oil companies, neither do I care to lord it over others who don't believe what I believe. However, others may see Elder Packer to be saying something else, to them, and I do not wish to preclude whatever application the Spirit bears to their hearts concerning it. It's not my business to set up stumbling blocks for my brothers and sisters.
Elder Packer said what he said. So, as I say elsewhere, make of it what you will.
quote: In this particular example, I take Elder Packer to be saying, to me, that I don't have to concern myself with every fact in existence. Great.
If that is all that Elder Packer was saying, then he was saying something so utterly trivial that it was hardly worth his breath.
But Elder Packer does not strike me as the kind of man who would waste his breath this way. He strikes me as a deeply reflective and serious man who expects, and deserves, to be taken seriously.
So I conclude that this was not all he was saying. Do you disagree? If not, what do you believe the rest of his message was?
quote: What I want is to know the things of God, the hidden mysteries which are known only by revelation through faithfulness and beneficial works.
How much interest do you have in knowledge that can be obtained in ways other than revelation?
quote: Does geology get me there? No. It is, to me, a complete and utter waste of time - I don't work for the oil companies, neither do I care to lord it over others who don't believe what I believe.
Do you see any legitimate reason to study geology other than to work in the oil industry? I don't mean necessarily for you to study geology; you've answered that question fairly plainly. I mean for anyone to study geology.
A related question: Do you see any legitimate reason for anyone to study number theory, other than for its value in cryptography, verification, or error correction?
Do you see any value in studying astronomy?
How about studying particle physics?
And a final related question: Why are you interested in revealed knowledge? Would you be interested in revealed knowledge that had no conceivable applicability to how you conduct your life? Why or why not?
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posted
I have not met anyone here that is trying to, sell [their] ideas, draw away followers, be a leader among men, make [themselves] popular, seek to be a counselor to anyone. However, I, and everyone I am aware of on this forum take ownership of their words. We freely state our beliefs with the expectation that no one may agree. And we expect to be questioned about our beliefs.
This is the fundamental process of learning, sharing ideas and why we believe those ideas.
quote:I figure the honest at heart will accept me at face value, while those whose concern is not so much the truth will not.
The contrary to this is that, any that don't accept you are the dishonest at heart, and also these same must not care about the truth.
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing any humility or willingness to suppose that someone else's well thought out ideas could be equally true.
posted
From a certain point of view all knowledge is revealed. Given that God already knows every scientific principle we could ever hope to learn. Then whatever man "discovers" is not new knowledge. God already knew it.
Further, I believe that God could keep scientific knowledge from progressing, if he so chose. Seems terribly coincidental that we've made so much scientific progress in the last few hundred years. I have always wondered why the process of discovery was so slow. My conclusion is that at key points in history God has intervened.
Therefore, all knowledge, is revealed knowledge.
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quote:If that is all that Elder Packer was saying, then he was saying something so utterly trivial that it was hardly worth his breath.
But Elder Packer does not strike me as the kind of man who would waste his breath this way. He strikes me as a deeply reflective and serious man who expects, and deserves, to be taken seriously.
So I conclude that this was not all he was saying. Do you disagree? If not, what do you believe the rest of his message was?
That is the meaning of his message, to me, with specific reference to the topic at hand. In other contexts, I might draw other principles from it. But this is neither controversial, nor worth even discussing, is it?
quote: How much interest do you have in knowledge that can be obtained in ways other than revelation?
It depends on what that knowledge is. With respect to geology, the answer is "not much 'tall." With respect to experiential matters, particularly with respect to social concerns, the answer is "very much;" those are precisely the things the D&C commends to us - "53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should ... obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion." But, then, Brigham Young described all knowledge acquisition as a kind of revelation - while noting that knowledge is only gained by experience. Which is why I hastened to add, data are true - interpretations thereof are not necessarily true.
quote:I don't mean necessarily for you to study geology; you've answered that question fairly plainly. I mean for anyone to study geology.
I don't have any basis to answer that question for anyone else. I can only offer my own view of its role in my life and see if it echoes in someone else.
quote: A related question: Do you see any legitimate reason for anyone to study number theory, other than for its value in cryptography, verification, or error correction?
Do you see any value in studying astronomy?
How about studying particle physics?
Having studied those topics, I can honestly say that some people like the darnedest things. I have found enjoyment in the past in constructing proofs and discovering principles that (usually) were known to others before I independently became aware of them.
However, I have grown out of that phase. My needs and desires are not such that knowledge of how matter interacts in this fallen sphere can fulfill me. I am far more interested in how people relate and interact.
quote:And a final related question: Why are you interested in revealed knowledge?
For reasons similar to Abraham:
"I sought for the blessings of the fathers, and the right whereunto I should be ordained to administer the same; having been myself a follower of righteousness, desiring also to be one who possessed great knowledge, and to be a greater follower of righteousness, and to possess a greater knowledge, and to be a father of many nations, a prince of peace, and desiring to receive instructions, and to keep the commandments of God, I became a rightful heir, a High Priest, holding the right belonging to the fathers."
I hope I might someday have power to expend my time, talents, and energy in seeking the glory of God, which is to say, seeking to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, by bringing knowledge of Him to them who seek Him, by His power and authority.
quote: Would you be interested in revealed knowledge that had no conceivable applicability to how you conduct your life? Why or why not?
Strangely, I have not had that happen yet. Always revelations have, in retrospect, caused a change in my behavior - I do something that I otherwise would not have done; I consider courses of action I otherwise would not have imagined.
Moreover, every personal revelation is a union, however brief, with God. I would always be interested in that union. God can tell me whatever he wants, so long as I can be in his presence.
Posts: 246 | Registered: May 2012
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quote:I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing any humility or willingness to suppose that someone else's well thought out ideas could be equally true.
Let me address your more pertinent accusation about my unteachability (as opposed to your judgement of my lacking humility): whether an idea is well-thought-out or not has absolutely no bearing on 1. whether it is true, and 2. whether I should care about it.
"27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
I receive truth from whatever source, so long as it is, in fact, truth (and I know it to be truth), and I care about the topic.
I have had reason to change positions many times. As an example, I used to believe I had both libertarian free will and that God had infallible foreknowledge. I no longer believe that.
quote: I believe that God could keep scientific knowledge from progressing, if he so chose....My conclusion is that at key points in history God has intervened.
You are completely correct. That was actually the point of the confounding of the languages at the Tower of Babel.
" 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech."
This is why we didn't have nuclear weapons thousands of years ago. The Lord is bringing all things to a head now.
posted
So what I can gather is if you have a talent for geology, a talent given to you by a loving and all knowing Heavenly Father, its a useless talent because you don't see its use? Sadly all I see here is a hubris of epic proportions. I think the quote you are using with a strange bent, is in relation to issues of early LDS life blocking our belief in our own eternal progression.
Ill add that anything is a good book defining what can be good or bad is a pointless activity - if you read it and it gives you insight to further your intelligence / knowledge and if it also gives you a spiritual insight than it is a good book. Frankly I can sight Mein Kampf as a good book as it has allowed me to see the madness and its cause, it has allowed me to further understand the implications of the Milgram experiment and to be forever mindful of those who lead us and how they use their power. A talent for history can lead to many things, a talent for geology can lead to many things and dismissing knowledge is a dangerous thing to do.
quote:So what I can gather is if you have a talent for geology, a talent given to you by a loving and all knowing Heavenly Father, its a useless talent because you don't see its use?
If it doesn't interest me, it doesn't interest me. Do you pursue things that are both useless and uninteresting?
quote: Sadly all I see here is a hubris of epic proportions. I think the quote you are using with a strange bent, is in relation to issues of early LDS life blocking our belief in our own eternal progression.
That is because you are reading me as if you wrote what I wrote. You didn't write it. I wrote it. And I meant what I meant - but that's not available to you.
Let me, however, give you more fuel for the fires of judgement.
I have it within me the gifts necessary to be a lawyer, or a doctor. I could have been an evolutionary biologist, a physicist, a musician, or any of a host of other things.
I am none of those things at this time. I am pursuing that which interests me, and not pimping out my talents for the benefit of Babylon and reaping my green rewards, but am doing something which is far more humble and less respected, which I believe is an opportunity to grow in the capacities God wants me to develop that I may serve him with all my heart, might, mind, and strength and have joy therein.
So, why should I care about medicine? Why should I care about law, except insomuch as it hinders my ability to serve God and my fellow man? It doesn't interest me to play Trivial Pursuit all the days of my life. If it does interest you, then may you find joy and rejoicing in your pursuits.
quote:Are you suggesting that a continuing interest in, say, astronomy, is a kind of infantilism?
Because, yeah. That is how it comes across to me.
I was being extremely literal, and describing my experience. Pursuit of physical fact was, for me, a kind of infantilism, if you prefer to term it such - it functioned for me as a retreat from the real world of human interpersonal relationships which I could not fully participate in for many years. I also was an atheist at the time, so those questions were the only ones I could get answers to.
Everyone's different. Your trials are not my trials, neither are your gifts my gifts.
I've rarely met a man who has so stripped himself of intellectual curiosity, and who comes across as so proud of it.
I imagine that, from time to time, we have visitors to these pages who are not familiar with the culture or teachings of the Church. I want to make it clear to any such visitors who may be reading this that log is not, my experience, typical of the membership of the Church, nor does his attitude much resemble the attitude of Joseph Smith and his associates, who were nothing if not intellectually curious. Just for the record and to avoid any misunderstandings.
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quote:If it doesn't interest me, it doesn't interest me. Do you pursue things that are both useless and uninteresting?
Ahh I agree but not with your approach, I may find soemthing uninteresting, yet I would not rebuke someone who does find it interesting. For example sports is something I find tedious - yet I admire the peoples dedication both to play and support.
Let me, however, give you more fuel for the fires of judgement. oh I am sorry are you casting the first stone? No not really you are merely wrapping yourself in the defences of victim-hood, while casting judgement on others.
quote:I am pursuing that which interests me, and not pimping out my talents for the benefit of Babylon, and reaping my green rewards, but am doing something which is far more humble and less respected, which I believe is an opportunity to grow in the capacities God wants me to develop that I may serve him with all my heart, might, mind, and strength and have joy therein.
So translated this is, my talent is more important all others are pimped out to Babylon. Judgemental much?
quote: So, why should I care about medicine? Why should I care about law, except insomuch as it hinders my ability to serve God and my fellow man? It doesn't interest me to play Trivial Pursuit all the days of my life. If it does interest you, then may you find joy and rejoicing in your pursuits.
So law hinders your ability to serve God, how? Finally you got to the bit you should have said a few posts ago and perhaps before you brought a general authority into it....
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Just because I am uninterested in your version of science - because the sole point of your interactions with me has been to counter what you see as anti-intellectualism on my part, if I am not grossly mistaken - does not mean I have no intellectual curiosity.
I have different priorities than you. And it is not for you to judge my priorities.
As it is, I don't recall Joseph going for geology or physics, but studying history, languages, people, and the mysteries of God.
And I don't recall him condemning others in a spirit of self-righteousness for their values, either.
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