posted
I think we had this discussion in the past but I am really unclear about the consensus. Here is the starting event:
As usual, a conversation with me turned into a conversation about the stiffnecked folks in my family circle (to whom I wish people would talk directly) and how I should... because.... This time it was a kind stake rep who was arranging my release from the stake calling of teacher in Seminary. Apparently, he hasn't been paying attention because he did not know about David's withdrawal from all things Godly (gosh, almost a year...)and he ran through all the same gamut of which I am growing quite weary of...but I remain polite: after all they have a duty.
But this lovely man decided to give me comfort in his way. And that included the theory posited by I forget who that if a parent is faithful, the child will be restored to the family in the Celestial kingdom.
Now, I don't know where to find the specific text people use when they make this claim. I have a fundamental problem with the theory and as I blundered away in front of the Stake prep, I realized I had better pull up my socks and prepare better for the next time someone runs this across my bow.
Even the text we studied in Alma recently teaches that because the people Alma was teaching in chapters 9-12 were once in full possession of the truth and turned away, they were in greater jeopardy and would be judged far differently than the Lamanites, a people who had been raised with false traditions.
I also have a firm conviction based on any one of many scripture texts that teach, mercy and grace notwithstanding, who your parents are matters not one whit if you are unrepentant : see one third of our Perfect Parents' offspring.
But this brother was just as convinced that MY faithfulness will restore my children to a state of grace qualified for the Celestial Kingdom.
My faithfulness might keep them from Outer Darkness, and like the Prodigal Son's father, I will welcome them whole heartedly if they repent but once they have frittered away their inheritance, they don't get "all that the Father hath" times two.
Am I way out in left field yet again?
Posts: 5468 | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: “The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).
I have my doubts as to the accuracy of this quote and/or the truthfulness of the doctrine. That being said, if it comforts someone then more power to them.
Posts: 467 | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think you are unclear because there is a disconnect between children coming back and children having agency. I've yet to understand how it works together though I have heard quoted a number of times the idea that children will come back.
I have one friend who has stated that even if she finds on the other side that the church is true she will refuse it. She describes her parents as being faithful. It doesn't make sense that the two ideas would work together in her case if she truly would refuse it in the next life.
I wish I could help, at least remember, who said the quote or even who quoted it. I know it has given peace to my mom, but I don't understand why.
Posts: 4943 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
The quote doesn't mention exhaltation, but salvation, depending on what is meant by "home". This would somewhat make more sense to me.
Posts: 4943 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've always wondered how Lehi and Sariah, parents of Laman and Lemuel, feel about this "Divine Tentacles" notion.
Posts: 304 | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
It seems to me that the idea that children sealed to righteous couples are all but guaranteed salvation is plainly contradictory to the Standard Works, which make agency all but paramount.
Elder Whitney himself did not claim his statement has a basis in the Standard Works. He said the source of the doctrine was Joseph Smith. I've never seen anyone come forward with a record of Joseph Smith actually teaching such a doctrine, other than Elder Whitney's claim which is at least 85 years after the fact.
We are either misunderstanding what Elder Whitney is trying to say (very possible, given he said it 83 years ago and is no longer around to clarify) or Elder Whitney misunderstood a second- or third-hand account of something Joseph Smith might have said.
For my part, I will look on the Elder Whitney quote as holding out the possibility that our faithfulness will ease the path for our children, which after all is pretty reasonable. I will not take it as any kind of guarantee that they will be saved, since this violates the well-settled doctrine of agency, until there is further revelation on the subject.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote:Elder Whitney himself did not claim his statement has a basis in the Standard Works. He said the source of the doctrine was Joseph Smith. I've never seen anyone come forward with a record of Joseph Smith actually teaching such a doctrine, other than Elder Whitney's claim which is at least 85 years after the fact.
We are either misunderstanding what Elder Whitney is trying to say (very possible, given he said it 83 years ago and is no longer around to clarify) or Elder Whitney misunderstood a second- or third-hand account of something Joseph Smith might have said.
It is a great challenge to raise a family in the darkening mists of our moral environment.
We emphasize that the greatest work you will do will be within the walls of your home (see Harold B. Lee, Ensign, July 1973, p. 98), and that “no other success can compensate for failure in the home” (David O. McKay, Improvement Era, June 1964, p. 445).
The measure of our success as parents, however, will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.
It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.
It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled.
“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, p. 110.)
We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them. President Brigham Young said:
“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., 2:90–91.)
It has been quoted at least six times in general conference over the last 20 years.
posted
Boyd K. Packer does not have authority to set aside the Standard Works, even in a Conference talk. Only the united First Presidency, or the united Quorum of the Twelve when there is not a functioning First Presidency, have that authority.
Elder Packer knows this, and I believe he respects the limits of his own authority. I therefore conclude that he is not teaching what a lot of people want to believe he is teaching. The Standard Works are as plain about agency as any other doctrine of the Church. Children sealed to righteous parents remain free to chose to be as damned as they want.
What it is Elder Packer is teaching is a mystery to me. That I do not have an explanation does not mean that I am obligated to accept anyone else's explanation.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
quote: I believe and accept the comforting statement of Elder Orson F. Whitney:
“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God.”
A principle in this statement that is often overlooked is that they must fully repent and “suffer for their sins” and “pay their debt to justice.” I recognize that now is the time “to prepare to meet God.” If the repentance of the wayward children does not happen in this life, is it still possible for the cords of the sealing to be strong enough for them yet to work out their repentance? In the Doctrine and Covenants we are told, “The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
“And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.”
posted
Since there is no sealing covenant currently to bind me and mine, this promise which seems to be addressed to sealed families is null in our case.
I do believe that there will be balm for my soul if I am not able to be with my family in the Kingdom; another church member put it this way
quote: If parents are faithful, they will have their children under their wing in the eternities, no matter what kingdom the wayward children choose to enter. They will be able to commune and associate with them and love them just as they do now, but there are some places some people just won't be able to enter.
This resonates with my personal beliefs and seems sensible to me.
Posts: 5468 | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
President Faust is still not the united First Presidency. Like Elder Packer, he does not have authority to set aside the Standard Works, even in a Conference talk. Like Elder Packer, I believe he respects the limits of his own authority.
In Elder Faust's case, though, I'm not quite as mystified at what he is trying to say. He acknowledges that Elder Whitney's statement seems to contradict the Standard Works. He struggles to resolve the contradiction, and it appears that his solution is to fall back on the scriptural doctrine of salvation for the dead.
The dead who repent become heirs of salvation. What degree of salvation? D&C 76 hints at the terrestrial glory for those who receive not the testimony of Jesus in this life, but afterwards receive it. However, it's an area on which we don't have full revealed knowledge.
Elder Faust suggests that it is possible for the sealing cords to be strong enough to permit wayward children to work out their salvation after this life. I see no guarantee here that would violate agency.
So I find Elder Faust's statement to be a lot easier to reconcile with the Standard Works than Elder Packer's. It would hardly be unprecedented for one General Authority to clarify a statement made earlier by a different General Authority. In fact, it seems to be a regular occurrence in the Church, as part of the gradual unfolding of our understanding of the Gospel.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Above everything else, I believe that God is fair and just. This does not follow logic or fairness. We are free to choose. There are consequences to our choices. Jesus was our Savior for the sins we commit. Where does it say ANYWHERE in the scriptures that parents play any type of saving role?
My sister holds on tight to this belief as her son has "gone astray". As much as she talks about him being saved through their faithfulness, she continues to worry so much about his eternal damnation that she doesn't notice that he is a wonderful husband and father, and is a happy and productive man. It's a power thing for her.
Posts: 332 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe that the children will forever be bound to their parents, though that doesn't mean they will inherit celestial glory themselves. For now I believe that the scriptures are very clear on agency and how we inherit the celestial kingdom.
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
