posted
While attending BYU in one my classes we were discussing dinosaurs and cave men and such. We were given an opportunity for extra credit to write a paper on the class topics so I wrote a theory on how Satan was allowed to do his plan and the evidence of the plan is the dinosaurs and cave man etc that were once embodied in mortal bodies prior to Adam and Eve and the commencement of the Lord's plan.
below are some of the chronological phases as I see them:
1) Council in Heaven 2) Two plans permitted to be given 3) Heated discussion and war about what plan was superior 4) Sides were chosen 5) Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven and sent to earth before Adam and Eve and the commencement our current phase of existence.
So what did Satan and his followers do on earth for all of that time before Adam and Eve got here?
Any speculative thoughts or theories?
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posted
What I find fascinating (and quite beautiful) is this epic poem's re-telling of the War in Heaven and the Creation, with the suggestion that the concept of a manufactured and exactly designed Creationism was Satan's proposal which would have removed the fullness of natural agency, and that the allowance of the agency of the natural geological and evolutionary processes (including those red in tooth and claw) leading up to the free emergence of consciousness and suitable hosts for Children of God , which was God's plan for his children.
I'm not going to defend this view. I just think its a thought-provoking thing of beauty.
posted
I strongly question the concept of taking away someone's agency in the first place.
First, "that Satan...sought to destroy the agency of man." (Moses 4:3) Destroy is not the same as take away.
Second, D&C 93:30, "all truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence."
From that I read that if intelligence didn't possess agency, nothing would exist. Just like our physical world wouldn't exist with the fundamental forces of physics.
This implies to me that we can't be truly compelled in the sense of having our free will negated. And if our external physical actions were somehow controlled, it still wouldn't have any effect on enabling our exaltation, because the Lord requires the heart, not just some Law of Moses performances imposed upon us somehow. I also can't conceive of any practical scenario that would allows for all of our actions to be controlled to the extent that would even seem sufficient from an external perspective.
So, I think when it says he sought to destroy our agency, that he in fact sought to make it meaningless.
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posted
I just discovered this, apparently the phrase "Sons of Perdition" includes all those that chose to follow Satan in the pre-mortal existence.
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quote: Edit: I believe that evil cannot be creative. It must wait until the advent of something good, then it seeks to oppose, corrupt, counterfeit, and destroy.
What if evil can organize or organize life or organize physical bodies for the spirits that followed him to take possession of for the purpose of opposing, corrupting, counterfeiting and destroying?
We know Lucifer had power and that he was cast out.
quote: D&C 76:25
25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God , who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
He does not seem to have the veil so he seems to have retained his knowledge of his and our former selves and it seems to have retained some priesthood power as well.
So the question becomes did Satan have enough priesthood and knowledge and authority to organize bodies for the spirits that followed him to occupy for the purpose of opposing and outdoing God's plan?
An interesting article on how Satan lost his status is discussed by Hugh Nibley,
quote: In the presence of all the hosts, Adam is next made ready to take over his great assignment. He is placed on a throne and given a crown of glory and a scepter, and all the sons of God bow the kneefirst to God the Father and then to Adam the Father in recognition of his being in God’s exact likeness and image. (13a.) Satan, however, refuses to comply, declaring that he is willing to worship the Father but not Adam: “It is rather he that should worship me for I arrived before he did!” (13a–b.) (See Moses 1:19: “I am the Only Begotten, worship me.”) God saw that Satan, because of his boundless ambition and total lack of humility, could no longer be trusted with celestial power and commanded the angels to remove him from his office . This ordinance they performed with great sorrow and reluctance: They “removed the writing of authority from his hand. They took from him his armor and all the insignia of priesthood and kingship.” Then with a ceremonial knife, a sickle, they inflicted upon him certain ceremonial blows of death which deprived him of his full strength forever after . (14a.) Other accounts say that after these cuts he retained only one-third of his former power , even as he was followed by one-third of the hosts.
So Adam was worshipped as was his Father and as in this case I see Adam our Father being with his Father and our Grandfather and that Adam is like his Son Jesus Christ in that he is in the exact likeness and express image of his Father as well – I think it was said by Truman G Madsen that the Son is “exactly similar” to the Father.
Next Satan is older or his spirit birth was before that of Adams.
Next interesting point the removal of office or of power or of priesthood is an ordinance yet some power and authority is retained.
So how much power was retained and was it enough for Satan to make bodies for the spirits who followed him and fill out his own plan?
So is God so fair as to let his arch nemesis a fair opportunity to overthrow him?
I know what Hugh Nibley is quoting is not LDS scripture but it is interesting and fits into my view and LDS theories of the continuation of the cycles and how the same story plot is continuing with the same Roles and Titles but different individuals are playing in the Roles each successive revolution of the phases and of eternity and individuals are progressing from exaltation to exaltation and from eternity to eternity.
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quote: I may be misunderstanding you here. Are you stating that Satan made physical bodies for the spirits that followed him?
I've wondered if it was possible for Satan to make bodies for his followers and the evidence of those bodies to be the cavemen findings and the dinosaurs etc for those animals who followed him...
quote: He did not. Satan and all who followed him do not have bodies and cannot have bodies--that's part of the second estate that Satan is denied because of his rebellion.
I've wondered if God actually did allow for Satan to have an opportunity in the second estate.
Isn't pretty rude to allow another plan to be offered but to not allow it an opportunity to succeed or fail?
I'm pretty sure there are statements out there saying to your point that Satan and followers were denied the opportunity to have physical bodies because of their rebellion. I wonder though if those statements could be seen and interpreted as being denied to have physical mortal bodies during our mortal probation and not necessarily to be denied an opportunity for a physical body in their plan of salvation.
I think that teaching comes from Joseph Smith:
quote: The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none.
Again I do not see that it says that they could not have had a physical body if they were given an opportunity to have their turn on earth only that they do not have a tabernacle during our turn on earth. It does say they can obtain the tabernacle of man and of other living things like the swine so it seems possible that they could have possessed mortal tabernacles if they were granted an opportunity to have a mortal probation to see if their Leaders plan will win out over the Fathers plan.
quote: Nibley's conjecture sounds a lot like Adam-God theory. There is no scriptural support for it. And, I reject the idea that we did/will worship Adam.
That's fine. There is a lot of literature out there where other beings other than God are worshiped or where being "bow the knee" to another more exalted being. And it did say that they bowed their knees "first to God the Father and then to Adam the Father" showing that Adam's Father is and was greater or has more rank, authority, dominions etc than that of "Adam the Father"
Also don't forget Daniel 7:9 where
quote: thousand thousands ministered unto him
Many have compared Daniel 7: 9-10 Versus Revelations 20: 11-12 and it seems to be the same vision being described.
quote: Daniel 7: 9-10
9 ¶I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him : the judgment was set , and the books were opened .
quote: Revelations 20
11 And I saw a great white throne , and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead , small and great, stand beforeGod ; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Daniel 7
Ancient of Days, v9 throne, v9 millions stood "before" him, v10 judgment was set, v10 "and the books were opened", v10
Revelation 20
God, v12 throne, v11 the dead stand "before" him, v12 were judged, 12 "and the books were opened", v12
So do we not "bow the knew" worship or praise other of God's leaders in our church and only God?
The church readily acknowledges that Adam is a great leader and Michael was and yet will be a great leader and a chief captain in the Lord's Army.
Do worshiping other great leaders take away anything from the greatness of God?
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quote:4. Heavenly Father called a meeting for all his spirit children. At this meeting he explained his plan for us to become like him. He told us that he wanted us to go to earth to get a physical body. He explained that on earth we would be tested to see if we would keep his commandments.
5. At this meeting Heavenly Father also explained that on earth we would all sin and we would all die. Heavenly Father needed someone to be the Savior, to suffer for our sins, and to die for us so that we could be resurrected.
6. Lucifer wanted Heavenly Father to change his plan. Lucifer said he would save everyone by taking away their freedom to choose, which would have made it impossible for us to make mistakes or be righteous. Lucifer also wanted all the honor (Moses 4:1).
Your original comments agree nicely with this simple explanation, Roper. Probably because it has a scriptural foundation.
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quote: The scriptures make it clear that Satan and those who followed him will never have bodies. Nor will they ever get a chance to "try out" Lucifer's proposed modifications to our Father's plan.
Where do the scriptures make this point clear that Satan and those who followed him will never bodies and never get a chance to "try out" Lucifer's proposed modifications?
I'm not saying I believe this but I don't see where it says this did not happen clearly and I wonder if it is as clear of a teaching in the scriptures as it has become in our minds as to what has been taught us our whole lives as the Primary lesson you quoted lays out.
Revelations 12:9
quote: 9 And the great dragon was cast out , that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth , and his angels were cast out with him.
Here we only learn that the Devil was cast into the earth and I think we all agree that this casting out was done before Adam and Eve arrived.
Abraham 3: 27-28
quote: 27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Here we only learn that Satan volunteered and was rejected and that they kept not their first estate or were cast out of the pre-mortal world and that many followed Satan.
Moses 4: 1-4
quote: 1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan , whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning , and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor .
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man , which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
Here we learn that Satan was from the beginning and was a senior leader as was Christ and that he offered to be the Son and his proposal was that not one soul would be lost and that he, Satan, thought it fit for the Father to then give him his honor.
Verse 3 says he was cast down...
But no where do I see that Satan's plan was not given an opportunity only that he was cast out to earth and that his proposal would be that not one soul would be lost and that for his plan he wanted the Father's honor.
D&C 76:25
quote: 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
Satan was an angel of God, He was in authority in the presence of God.
Any ventures as to what that means? How was Satan in authority in the presence of God? Did he have the priesthood? If so How did he get the priesthood? How exalted was Satan?
Satan "rebelled against the Only Begotten Son"
Satan "was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son"
Vs 26:
quote: 26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
Satan was wept over and was a son of the morning - what does it mean to be a Son of the Morning?
Isaiah 14:12-15 2 Nephi 9:6-26
No nothing about saying No chance to being embodied or to have a chance at Satan's plan..
So you may be right about,
quote: Satan and those who followed him will never have bodies. Nor will they ever get a chance to "try out" Lucifer's proposed modifications
but my point is that I wonder that the scriptures are not as clear as one might think about your conclusion and how much of your opinion is just assumed and may or may not be the whole story?
Satan and his followers were cast out to earth before Adam and Eve, Satan wanted the honor of the father and wants to be worshiped by all and he was once in authority in the presence of the Father and was a son of the morning and a great personage in the Kingdom of God which I assume you would have to be to even offer up a plan at the council in heaven.
So any Gospel theories on how caveman or the dinosaurs got here?
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quote:...But no where do I see that Satan's plan was not given an opportunity...
You serously believe that if "Satan's plan" had been given a go, or that his followers had been given cave man bodies, that said experiment would not have been at least mentioned in the scriptures?
Seriously? You believe that such a thing could occur with nary a scriptural mention?
Lost books. The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable, but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14). To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text, but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).
The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that he gave to his people in former times, and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete.
Matthew’s reference to a prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (2:23) is interesting when it is considered that our present O.T. seems to have no statement as such. There is a possibility, however, that Matthew alluded to Isaiah 11:1, which prophesies of the Messiah as a Branch from the root of Jesse, the father of David. The Hebrew word for branch in this case is netzer, the source word of Nazarene and Nazareth. Additional references to the Branch as the Savior and Messiah are found in Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; these use a synonymous Hebrew word for branch, tzemakh.
The Book of Mormon makes reference to writings of O.T. times and connection that are not found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in any other known source. These writings are of Zenock, Zenos, and Neum (1 Ne. 19:10; Alma 33:3–17). An extensive prophecy by Joseph in Egypt (which is not in the Bible) is also apparent from 2 Ne. 3:4–22, and a prophecy of Jacob (not found in the Bible) is given in Alma 46:24–26. These writings were evidently contained on the plates of brass spoken of in the Book of Mormon (1 Ne. 5:10–13).
quote: Scriptures, Lost see also Scriptures to Come Forth; BD Lost books.
took the book of the covenant, Ex. 24:7 book of the wars of the Lord, Num. 21:14 book of Jasher, Josh. 10:13 (2 Sam. 1:18). Samuel … wrote it in a book, 1 Sam. 10:25 book of the acts of Solomon, 1 Kgs. 11:41 book of Samuel the seer, 1 Chr. 29:29 book of Nathan the prophet, 2 Chr. 9:29 book of Shemaiah the prophet, 2 Chr. 12:15 acts of Abijah … in the story of the prophet Iddo, 2 Chr. 13:22 book of Jehu, 2 Chr. 20:34 written among the sayings of the seers, 2 Chr. 33:19 spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene, Matt. 2:23 I wrote unto you in an epistle, 1 Cor. 5:9 as I wrote afore in few words, Eph. 3:3 read the epistle from Laodicea, Col. 4:16 when I gave all diligence to write unto you, Jude 1:3 Enoch also … prophesied of these, Jude 1:14 taken away … many parts which are plain, 1 Ne. 13:26 words of Zenock … according to the words of Neum, 1 Ne. 19:10 (3 Ne. 10:16). I shall also speak unto all nations … they shall write, 2 Ne. 29:12 do ye not remember … the words of the prophet Zenos, Jacob 5:1 (Jacob 6:1; Alma 33:3; Alma 34:7; Hel. 15:11). parts which had been commanded … should not go forth, Alma 63:12 also Zenock, and also Ezias, and also Isaiah, Hel. 8:20 I give not the full account, but a part, Ether 1:5 (Ether 3:17, 21). hundredth part I have not written, Ether 15:33 book of Enoch, D&C 107:57 men shall … take many of them from the book, Moses 1:41 book of remembrance was kept, Moses 6:5
quote: Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief. Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief. Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you. . . . And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed. Therefore, when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land. (Ether 4:13–17)
quote: Many Book of Mormon source materials are not now accessible. The gold plates given to Joseph Smith in 1827 mention a record of Lehi (1 Ne. 1:16-17) and other writings of Nephi 1 (1 Ne. 9:1-6). Jacob, Mormon, and Moroni 2 note that they could scarcely include "the hundredth part" of what could have been written (Jacob 3:13; 3 Ne. 5:8; Ether 15:33). The Lord often commanded the Nephite record keepers not to write or circulate certain things (see 1 Ne. 14:25-28; 3 Ne. 26:11-12), and Joseph Smith was similarly commanded by the Lord not to translate a large sealed portion of the gold plates (D&C 17:6; see also Ether 4:1-7;5:1-6).
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 17 June 1877 "Oliver Cowdery went with the Prophet Joseph when he deposited these plates. Joseph did not translate all of the plates; there was a portion of them sealed, which you can learn from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. When Joseph got the plates, the angel instructed him to carry them back to the hill Cumorah, which he did. Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads ; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls.
posted
ldstheories: When the earth was still in a primeval state, Satan had as much creative power as all of us. He was involved in creating higher life forms, including such monstrosities as the Tyrannosaurus Rex. This made him very impressive in the council in Heaven, because his creative abilities with carnivores were unmatched, and many of his carnivorous creations were unmatched in dominance. Meanwhile the more humble followers of the Father were not as assertive in their creative dominance, they opted to create trees that flowered, and dinosaurs that sprouted feathers and flew, and the most ugly creatures called primitive mammals. Satan's creations feasted on these creatures... Often Satan possessed his carnivores and raged in the land... until the Father held the council in Heaven, and as a result of the War in Heaven, he authorized an extinction level event, and Satan's creations were decimated, while the lowly creatures that were created by the Noble and Great spirits prospered, and their creators were given authorization to further develop their creations, while Satan and his carnivorous friends, were restricted in this new world. They raged, rebelled and were eventually cast out.
Even today they desire to create carnivorous creatures out of man. And as we know... The Carnal mind, the natural man, is an enemy to God.
To be fair, the 'Epic of Eternity' has been popularly recrafted and restructured several times in the Church's history in order to best explain and express the best doctrinal understanding of the time.
One of the latest editions of the Journal of Mormon History had a fascinating article showing the development and evolution of the War in Heaven story in Christianity and Mormonism, and also how elements of it were rhetorically (and in contradicting ways!) used and emphasized by Church leaders throughout the years.
Speculation, and use of the story to explain complications and contradictions is a popular Mormon pastime (How was the Blacks restriction justified? Changing the War in Heaven story, etc.)
Frankly, I think 99% of what we know or think we know about such a 'war' is heavily symbolic. Playing around with the story and the symbols, to me, to try to work out and make sense of some things one doesn't understand seems perfectly legitimate. Just as long as you're not teaching it as THE TRUTH or proclaim there's a conspiracy to repress it
Just because there are missing scriptures, does not give us leave to believe any bizarre thing we can imagine.
Just because things have changed in the past does not give us leave to invent our own crazy universe.
But hey, I hear the chronicles of Zenos demand that everyone should send me $500 per month by wire transfer.
Get on it people!!! I've been patient quite long enough.
quote:Just as long as you're not teaching it as THE TRUTH or proclaim there's a conspiracy to repress it.
Well, here is the issue with the "I know my ideas are weird, but I'm not teaching them as THE truth" approach:
Far-out-of-the-revealed-mainstream things get posted to Mormon message boards (which are the modern day equivalent of The Seer), and all of a sudden lurkers and others think we actually believe this stuff.
quote:Just because there are missing scriptures, does not give us leave to believe any bizarre thing we can imagine.
Just because things have changed in the past does not give us leave to invent our own crazy universe.
Of course we are given leave to believe anything we can imagine. Just not leave to teach it as an official doctrine of the Church, or enforce or pressure obedience to practices associated with those beliefs on others.
quote:But hey, I hear the chronicles of Zenos demand that everyone should send me $500 per month by wire transfer.
Get on it people!!! I've been patient quite long enough.
As soon as they get their spiritual witness of the truth of that principal, I'm sure they will
quote:
quote: Just as long as you're not teaching it as THE TRUTH or proclaim there's a conspiracy to repress it.
Well, here is the issue with the "I know my ideas are weird, but I'm not teaching them as THE truth" approach:
Far-out-of-the-revealed-mainstream things get posted to Mormon message boards (which are the modern day equivalent of The Seer), and all of a sudden lurkers and others think we actually believe this stuff.
Well, not when presented as "Hey, this is a personal opinion I have, etc, etc." - in those cases, there are members who believe that.
There's a great many (majority?) members who believe in physical spirit-birth. (Concepts which, by the way, first became fully expressed in places like...the Seer.) - I don't. It doesn't bother me that people believe it.
Basically, if your belief isn't causing you (or by extension, someone else) to violate a determined and set Church Policy or Standard, or to otherwise be a cause for abuse or justification for any form of harm to another group of people, then no harm, no foul, IMHO.
The truth is - there ARE a lot of Mormons out there who believe wacky things that you and I don't. It is inaccurate to say that those things are not believed.
It is, however, accurate and correct to say that those beliefs are not the current official position of the Church.
I, on the other hand, shall shall choose to stop wasting my time. I've already sacrificed too much of my precious life (precious, precious minutes which I shall never get back) on this discussion.
Did you get visions of Calvin and Hobbes while reading that? It's like Ray is Calvin "all growed up."
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Wast that just creative writing? Very Good! I can see some of the early saints saying that!
In doing research on this topic apparently there was a heated discussion on this topic and it was labeled "Pre-Adamites" and if they existed or not.
Bruce R McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith do not think so and Joseph Fielding Smith points to Adam as being "first flesh upon the earth" as evidence against it.
Apparently though many believed that there were Pre-Adamites including B._H._Roberts who apparently wrote a book on that was held from being published until 1994 called The Truth, The Way, The Life (Larson, Stan (1994). The Truth, the Way, the Life. San Francisco: Smith Research Associates.)
So the official answer is,
quote: The Church does not take an official position on this issue
Roberts hoped that the church would publish his most elaborate theological treatise "The Truth, The Way, The Life", but his attempt to use contemporary scientific theory to bolster Mormon doctrine led, in 1930, to a conflict with Mormon Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, who had been influenced by the writings of young earth creationist George McCready Price. Smith publicly opposed Roberts' quasi-evolutionary views in deference to a literal reading of both the Bible and the Mormon scriptures.[21] The controversy was debated before the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and it "declared a draw: Neither the existence nor the nonexistence of pre-Adamites would constitute church doctrine ."[22] The Truth, The Way, The Life was not published until 1994.[23]
Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God's affection or even a right to exaltation — for our scriptures allow them such. Nor am I overly concerned as to just when they might have lived, for their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared. God assigned them their proper times and functions, as he has given me mine — a full-time job that admonishes me to remember his words to the overly eager Moses: "For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me." (Moses 1:31.) It is Adam as my own parent who concerns me. When he walks onto the stage, then and only then the play begins.[3]
There is also a good list at the below site that discusses it - I think it leaves out any other opinions that people like B.H. Roberts may have had though and only gives the view point of Bruce R McConkie and Joseph Fielding Smith and like minded views....
I would definitely like to get a PDF copy of B.H. Roberts The Truth, The Way, The Life and see more what he had to say on the matter and some of his theories.
I had seen pretty good review and some saying it should be ranked among books like Jesus the Christ etc.
posted
There is no pdf. TWL was given a special annotated print run by permission of the Roberts estate in both a BYU Studies and Signature Books edition.
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Can't cancel NetFlix, it keeps her up on Dora the Explorer, which she not only loves, but really and truly has aided her development.
She's smart, and very aware, and soaks up information and concepts like sponge. Her explanation of who Jesus is? "He makes people feel better." Can't get more simple, or profound than that, IMO.
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Well, there's the fossil record, and the scriptures about the council in heaven... I mean think about, Lucifer falling from heaven like a falling star, c'mon... that's an extinction level event if you've ever heard of one! and... then of course there's Mosiah 3:19... that's about as much proof as anyone needs, right?
We just throw this stuff out there... and see what sticks. Posts: 13016 | Registered: Oct 98
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posted
In the other thread I asked how this idea was reconciled with Mark 5:2-13 and the answer was that they got bodies died became spirits and then came to earth to harass us.
For me, this is the key and the reason I'm not jumping on this band wagon.
The implications from my point of view are as follows.
If the followers of Satan got bodies then died, then came to earth to harass us. Then that is a fate different than us. Since every vision I've read of the spirit world we go to details an environment in which the world of the living is not readily visible.
So, either there are two spirit worlds, or the one spirit world has multiple sets of rules for it's inhabitants. Neither option seems in harmony with given knowledge.
Also, the most important aspect (IMO) of my question is why would the followers of Satan be so desperate for bodies when they have bodies? Why would they want to take pig bodies if they were man spirits and they already had bodies? Note, they asked for the pig bodies.
Further, if they had bodies and then got pig bodies, where in the scriptures or writings of the leaders of the church does the notion that a spirit can get a different (man vs. pig) body come from? And just so I'm clear, I'm talking about the concept that a given spirit has multiple bodies associated with it.
Do not mistake that I am talking about the normal process of death and resurrection in which my body is reconstructed for my spirit. I am talking about one spirit being able at resurrection to select a cave man body or a big body.
The concept of a spirit being assigned multiple bodies seems unnatural and bizarre to me.
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posted
While I don't consider it at all representative of an historic event or source of revealed doctrine concerning the matter, there are strong indications most of the NT writers were familiar with 1 Enoch, an intertestamental book, and its associated mythology, which explains demonic figures on earth being the spirits of dead giants, which were the hybrid offspring of rebellious angels and mortal women, and sentenced to wander to earth, and then eventually be confined to the Abyss at the End of Days. ("It is not yet our time!")
The idea of demonic possession seems to be relatively new in that period, it not even being brought up anywhere in the OT (where the idea of a spirit and body being separate wasn't at all common or the norm), where the closest concept was of disgruntled shades of the dead being bothered to come up from Sheol to speak.
The way the gospel writers presented, expressed, and framed the account of these exorcisms/healings by Jesus would definitely be colored by this culture and assumed understanding, and had MAJOR Eschatological (IE, 'End Times') symbolic significance. (The writer of the Epistles of Peter and Jude definitely were familiar with 1 Enoch, and its angelology, both directly quoting and strongly alluding to it as illustrative examples. The Gospel writers, likewise, use key phrases in a way that makes much more sense when knowledge of some of this lore is understood as a 'given')
Again, I do not believe this mythic scenario represents reality. However, you can say that it was a belief commonly held in the Primitive Church, as well as among certain groups of 1st Century Jews, that colored how they viewed Jesus and the significance of what he did.
posted
Doesn't matter if those scriptures happened or not. Since I have personal experience that things like that happen, it doesn't matter to me if those scriptures describe an actual event.
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quote: Again, I do not believe this mythic scenario represents reality. However, you can say that it was a belief commonly held in the Primitive Church, as well as among certain groups of 1st Century Jews, that colored how they viewed Jesus and the significance of what he did.
It was also a belief of the early saints of this dispensation. There are instances of Joseph casting out devils.
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quote: Again, I do not believe this mythic scenario represents reality. However, you can say that it was a belief commonly held in the Primitive Church, as well as among certain groups of 1st Century Jews, that colored how they viewed Jesus and the significance of what he did.
It was also a belief of the early saints of this dispensation. There are instances of Joseph casting out devils.
To clarify, by 'this mythic scenario', I was making reference to the idea of demons roaming the earth being the disembodied offspring of Giants who were watcher/human hybrids exterminated by angels of judgment.
I don't reject the historicity of Jesus performing exorcisms that had a real and visible effect - my comments were only to express how they were contextually understood by those who wrote about them.
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taalcon: what do you think about my theory? I'm thinking the giants (and nephilim for that matter) could be a confusion of the nature of that extinction level event, and the dinosaurs and megabeasts that roamed the earth... That would be awesome, huh?
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The scriptures tell us that Satan and his followers were cast to earth and by modern day revelation the spirit world is here on this earth.
My understanding is that the spirits that came to this earth with Satan will not get a resurrection and the only perdition that will get resurrected bodies are those that were born into this plan of mortality.
So for the theories sake the spirits who followed Satan will not get a resurrected body unless God's plan being played out now with Jesus as our Savior fails...Jesus won and did not fail so those spirits do not get a resurrected body...but they tried to win and Satan tempted Jesus with all his might and power and trickery for 40 days...
So the spirits that followed Satan do not get a resurrected body and do not have to choose between a pig or cave man body to be resurrected into...
But they apparently still desire for their spirits to be clothed in a mortal physical body even preferring to be pig or swines body than to be un-embodied as per Mark 5:2-13 as you mentioned.
Again this is just a fun theory I've had and wondered if it is a possibility to try to connect the dots from Satan and his followers being here before Adam and Eve and the evidence of the cave men and dinosaurs etc.
Apparently Satan and his angels do have access to see us in this mortal physical realm as shown in church history with Joseph Smith and other LDS Missionaries being physically attacked by evil spirits.
quote: On the morning of 30 July, the day the first baptisms were to be performed, the missionaries were attacked by Satan and his hosts. Elder Russell came to Elder Kimball, seeking relief from the torment of evil spirits. As Elders Hyde and Kimball laid their hands on him to bless him, Elder Kimball was knocked senseless to the floor by an invisible power. As he regained consciousness, he saw his brethren praying for him.
“[Heber wrote:] ‘I then arose and sat up on the bed, when a vision was opened to our minds, and we could distinctly see the evil spirits, who foamed and gnashed their teeth at us. We gazed upon them about an hour and a half. . . . I shall never forget the vindictive malignity depicted on their countenances as they looked me in the eye; and any attempt to paint the scene which then presented itself, or portray their malice and enmity, would be vain.’ . .
quote: I might go on with a long routine of manifestations of the power of God, and of the power of the devil; but you who have come from the old country, and some of the first Elders that went over there – Presidents Young, Kimball, Hyde, and others, recollect manifestations of the spirits of the devil in that land. They attacked those brethren by hundreds and by thousands, and the spirits were actually visible. If you could call up brother Willard Snow, and converse with him, I have no doubt that he would tell you he was attacked by them, and they overcame his body.
JD 2:12, Jedediah M. Grant, February 19, 1854
Any other conflicting points for me to think about?
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quote: Eventually Satan succeeded in getting possession of a mortal creature, which enabled him to carry on an extensive campaign aimed at Eve.
I wondered did Satan get possession of a mortal creature to speak with Eve or did he just appear as himself as a spirit of light?
More on the giants....that I always find interesting...
quote: According to these traditions, these were none other than special heavenly messengers who were sent down to earth to restore respect for the name of God among the degenerate human race but instead yielded to temptation, misbehaved with the daughters of men, and ended up instructing and abetting their human charges in all manner of iniquity. They are variously designated as the Watchers, Fallen Angels, Sons of God, Nephilim, or Rephaim, and are sometimes confused with their offspring, the Giants
quote: “There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare … to them … mighty men, … men of renown.
quote: The idea of intercourse between heavenly and earthly beings was widespread in ancient times.
quote: While the sons of God have been identified with both angels and the Watchers, the Greek Enoch does not identify the Watchers with Satan’s hosts who fell from heaven from the beginning— they are another crowd.
quote: It is the Joseph Smith Enoch which gives the most convincing solution: the beings who fell were not angels but men who had become sons of God. From the beginning, it tells us, mortal men could qualify as “sons of God,” beginning with Adam.
quote: “Why have you left heaven [and] the Exalted One,” says Enoch in a Gizeh fragment “and … with the daughters of men defiled yourselves? … Ye have behaved as sons of Earth and begotten to yourselves giant sons. And you were once holy, spiritual, eternal beings … and have lusted after the flesh … as do mortal and perishable creatures.”
So I don't think Angels came down and had intercourse with mortals and produced giants...but apparently that is the understanding for many.
So the sons of God were mortals who had entered into a covenant with God and become sons of God is my understanding..
I'm still not sure where the giants came from though...
Any thoughts on the Giants?
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quote: The statement comes from notes taken by William Clayton of a speech by Joseph on January 5, 1841 and is published in The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, by Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook. (I am unaware of any other sources; please provide others if you know of them.) Here is the relevant passage:
The world and earth are not synonymous terms. The world is the human family. This earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broke up and remodelled and made into the one on which we live . The elements are eternal. That which has a begining will surely have an end. Take a ring, it is without beginning or end; cut it for a beginning place, and at the same time you have an ending place.
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ldstheories, I view the Sons of God as Sons of Seth/Righteous/Covenant as being a good view of the story for personal application and doctrinal use today. I do feel that is its purpose in the JST.
However, in Genesis, and the early literature, the existence of Giants is directly related to the Sons of God/Watchers having children with the Daughters of Men. Take away this part of the myth, and the Giants are left, very literally, as orphans with no purpose.
Michael Heiser has presented a fascinating narrative that somewhat (with a few caveats) convincingly much that occurs in the OT as having direct correlation to this story, with many of the non-Israelites commanded to be wiped out by Moses, Joshua, etc being races with existing remnants of Giant/Nephilim blood.
Because the untrue mythic aspects no longer have any relevence to us today, and the Sethite/Sons of God approach does, it is clear to me why that version was approved and worked into Joseph's Inspired Doctrinal Revision of the Bible.
As for the smashed-up world theory accounting for cavemen and dinosaurs? Frankly, I think there are few things sillier.
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I enjoyed your theory, think it makes a great story, and that there are some fascinating places you could go with that if you desires to expand on it for a work of literature.
While I don't want to launch this into another evolution/creation thread, I personally don't approach the Lord's creative work as having anything to do with manufacture or physical design. I do believe that he does bring order and meaning to chaos and entropy, and gives purpose to the purposeless, and function to the functionless.
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quote:Doesn't matter if those scriptures happened or not. Since I have personal experience that things like that happen, it doesn't matter to me if those scriptures describe an actual event.
I agree and relate to this statement.
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I do consider the Joseph Smith Translation an inspired work, and an important contribution to modern revelation and a profound presentation of restored doctrine. I believe it is best understood in terms of its genre, (Midrash/Targum/Pseudepigrapha) and do not believe its intended purpose, for the most part, is to present a restoration of original ancient history, as much as revealing and extracting truth using the familiar scriptural tradition and personages as the 'canvas'. As I understand, it serves best to restore practical and applicable doctrinal truth, not manuscript or documentary history.
Another way to say it is that it can be viewed as what the original prophetic writers would have written, if they doctrinally and culturally understood things the way Joseph and the early saints were given to understand things, and if they had the same immediate concerns and goals. It's an inspired update to make the text more relevant. Biblical scholarship has shown that many of our biblical texts (as they stand in their ancient versions) were re-written and expanded and edited in this way. It's a venerable and authentic prophetic priority and tradition.
While biblical fundamentalist critics will say this shows disregard for the Bible, to me, it shows Joseph acting as the ancient prophets did - viewing scripture as something living, and to be 'upgraded' to see to the specific needs of the current generation. He did exactly what the Bible writers did. This is incredibly bold, and testifies very strongly about the nature of Scripture, and crushes the notions of immutable infallibility of scripture.
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I have found that the counsel and direction and practical application of the prophets is generally far more helpful and far less prone to error than the attempts to justify or explain why such direction has been given.
God generally tends to express principles and application. The factual errors generally creep in when we (and yes, even leaders) try to use our understanding of Sacred History to justify or neatly and easily explain why a certain command, restriction, etc exists.
Fortunately, I don't think God is as interested in us knowing the details of history than of doing and being the right thing. I think he'd prefer we have both, but he tends to lead discovering and understanding history to historians, and letting the prophets use elements of history (true or not) solely as illustrative tools to teach the True principles of what we should be doing, and who we should be becoming. And if they get the justification and explanation and storytelling a bit off? As long as we're becoming what God wants us to become, the Work and Glory is being fulfilled.
Problems come in when the Explanations and Justifications become foundations of testimony, and then are found to be based on inaccuracies, and need revision. We can either re-adjust our understanding of the explanation/justification, or throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I don't believe the prophets will send us off the course to becoming Christ-like in the what that is taught, and will always have a net positive in helping us to achieve that goal. I don't think their explanations of why and how will/have always been perfect, and may lead to some intellectual and behavioral detours. Nothing will happen to destroy the Church.
Heck, Brigham Young taught Adam-God, and we're still here today. Course corrections and bumpy roads happen. As long as we stay in the car (the Church) for the ride, even if the driver (Prophet) takes some strange routes, we'll end up where we're supposed to be. That's how I approach it.
It's God's car, and he gives the keys to those who will eventually get it to where it needs to go, without the car ending up in a ditch somewhere.
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