posted
I saw an upsetting situation last night and it is bothering me enough that I couldn't sleep.
Truth to tell, I often do not understand people. I don't understand a lot of social interactions. Sometimes, I feel like every one has a manual to humankind that I didn't get. So I am used to being stumped. But this one is different.
I was out shopping last night when I heard from another aisle "Two for flinching!" and "ow". I thought nothing of this since my own brothers had cured me from flinching the hard way too.
When I got up to the line (which was very long) I heard it again. At the courtesy desk, a very large man punched a petite young woman twice. Hard. She said "stop it". He walked away back into line where his friends apparently were. He had hit her hard enough that her upper body moved and she was rubbing her arm.
At this point, my lane closed and I had to move down to another lane. When I got re situated, I realized that he was back by the girl and had hit her again. Her friends were telling him to quit it. He drew his arm back like he was going to do it again and started laughing. and teasing the girl about flinching.
Things that you should know- This young man seemed really off. He seemed to have some sort impairment whether mental or social. He probably weighs between 300-350 and he is over 6 feet.
There were by my count 16 men also watching this. I knew that people were watching because it was very loud and people were looking at each other and then looking away and shaking their heads.
Why? What the heck? As a mom of 4 girls I was horrified to think that my kid could be getting punched in public and get no help. Was it uncomfortable for people because the guy clearly thought it was some sort of game? Were people reluctant to act because he seemed to be abnormal? This girl was really getting hurt.
I came home last night and told my girls about it. I reminded them of the self defense stuff we have talked about. But I also told them if they were in trouble, to make eye contact with a bystander and say "please help me". Would that help?
I just don't get it.
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posted
And why, when I walked over to deal with the situation did I get all kinds of help? People clearly knew that something needed to be done and supported action once it started. Why did they wait?
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posted
For me, I think it's that I don't trust what I'm really seeing. It is so out of my own experience that I have to stop and think, "Am I really seeing what I think I'm seeing?" That's why I hesitate sometimes.
However, in that case, I would have to have done something. A few seconds to hesitate is one thing, but to watch it happen repeatedly...I know it's a common human phenomenon, but I don't get it. People are so afraid of looking bad (busybody, intrusive) that they would rather watch someone get hurt?
So what happened? How did the situation end?
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posted
I think the reason you don't have too many people jumping in to help someone is they are afraid of either being sued or having the perp pull out a gun and shoot.
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posted
I seem to recall reading a few months ago that there seemed to be a non-intuitive inverse relationship between how many people are witnessing something bad and how likely someone is to jump in and do something about it. In other words, if there are just a few people it is likely that one of them will help. For some reason, though, when there are many people they are less likely to help. Perhaps because everyone is thinking/hoping that someone else will do it for them.
posted
I think it has to do with our general decline in moral standards. 50 years ago, it would have been clear to everyone around that what was happening was unacceptable and the first person to call the guy on his behavior could have been fairly certain that those around him (and police if they were to be called) would back him up. These days that is far less certain. We have allowed our moral absolutes to be degraded to the point that they are virtually non-existent. Good samaritans have to be concerned that they will be prosecuted for trying to help and there is very little certainty that the crowd will back you up.
Posts: 119 | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Jim, I've read the same thing, something to do with the tragedy of the commons. They've done experiments and when there is no one around, people stop and help a much, much larger percentage of the time than when there are a number of people around.
I do think it's a bit odd how for a lot of us, what goes through our head is some version of "oh, I don't want to be impolite, and interrupt that young man, and be impolite and stick my nose into someone else's business". I certainly don't like to be a busybody and intrude on other people's business, but that's a situation where it sounds like she is clearly hoping someone will intrude.
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posted
So statistically speaking if there had been 3 people watching, the girl would have been more likely to get help?
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quote:And why, when I walked over to deal with the situation did I get all kinds of help? People clearly knew that something needed to be done and supported action once it started. Why did they wait?
Because there is a total lack of "wherewithal" in this society? I was going to say "cojones" but Kathy always changed that word to "wherewithal."
Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: In other words, if there are just a few people it is likely that one of them will help. For some reason, though, when there are many people they are less likely to help. Perhaps because everyone is thinking/hoping that someone else will do it for them.
posted
The demotivational poster people are on to something with their poster on teamwork that says "none of us are as dumb as all of us".
"Somebody ought to do something" can be very deeply ingrained in our grey matter. I don't know why. I just have guesses.
The homeschool parent in me wants to blame it on the "shut up and sit down" and "it doesn't matter who started it, you're both in trouble" culture ingrained into our kids (not to mention the "fold your arms and be reverent - shhhhhh!" culture in primary). Zero tolerance means even the good samaritans get punished if the guy in the ditch needs someone to have a confrontation with someone.
We also teach our kids from an early age that they have a place, and bugging grown ups isn't it. We're taught to respect authority and when something happens, authority will handle it. The extent of our involvement should be to call "someone", so "someone" can do "something".
I watched a topical news show a few years ago. An actor lady and an actor child sat on a picnic table. The child sat there and looked miserable, while the lady issued a constant flow of verbal abuse. "I can't believe you are so stupid and useless. No wonder your mother doesn't love you. Why don't you go crawl in a hole and die." That sort of thing.
When the two acted out this scene in a golf course full of men, lots of head turning, zero action from the witnesses. When they did it in a park, the women witnesses fared better, but the majority still did nothing besides put on a face. The people who did intervene, tended to have training in social work, experience dealing with such issues, or used to be that kid and eventually escaped.
I dunno. It seems to me that my duty as a human is not to understand why, so I can smugly verbalize my righteous abhorrence of the issue. My duty is to make sure I can shake off whatever it is, and act like EDG did. It's one of the foundational reasons behind my defense preparations (conceal carry and mindset practice and train to act and whatnot).
My wife is my absolute superior here. She's stared down groups of punk kids more times than I can remember. She's grabbed a victim's eye contact and pulled requests for help out of them more than once. She is as gifted as EDG. I wish it came as naturally to me.
posted
How did you deal with the situation? Just curious. I guess sometimes it takes someone with the fortitude in a situation like that and step up and deal with it before others will. It's kind of like back when you were in school and had a question but was afraid to ask because you didn't want to look a fool. And finally someone else asks the question, and then several others seem relieved they did because thay all had the same question but were afraid to ask. Then to add insult to injury the teacher says something like "great question. Shows me you are thinking." And now you are muttering to yourself for not asking first. Good for you for coming to her defense.
Posts: 93 | Registered: Sep 2007
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quote: How did you deal with the situation? Just curious.
Very badly. That is part of the reason that I was so frustrated that it got left to me. I am not one of those people that can rationally go talk sense into people. When I am the voice of reason, it means the situation is seriously messed up.
Posts: 7922 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: When I am the voice of reason, it means the situation is seriously messed up.
That has not been my experience here at Nauvoo. You are a steadfast voice of reason here. (But I guess this is not Wal-Mart.)
Posts: 2595 | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
During my time as a security guard I often saw women and men fighting - sometimes out and out brawls. My boss once had stepped in and had been attacked by both parties after he went to the aid of a young lady, it happened to my country run partner and the city run partner. Frankly the law here in Autralia is rather skewed on what you can actually do, that it is far better to call the police and make your presence known.
For example I pulled up at about 1am at a shopping center near a train station, a young lady had been assault rather savagely (to the point her jaw looked like it was hanging from her face). This is one of the few times I acted and leapt out of the car and yelled to her in a rather loud voice that I was calling the police. I also approached her calmly explaining what I was going to do (ie it her down and try to stop the bood flow.)
Further up the road was a young chap, he stopped and ran the other way, not cause I issued a threat or presented any sort of defence. It was cause I acted calmly, told everyone (within my booming voices) earshot and acted. I think telling people you are calling the police, acting calmly and just walking through whats going to happen works better than any sort of confrontation.
posted
I am sorry that I do not have a good explanation. I do know that one of the worst feelings is the world is thinking that someone might be in danger and feeling helpless.
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posted
See, calm and reasonable. That's just the approach I was waiting for.
LM- I truly would like to meet your wife but I don't think I am like her. i am more of a bull in a china shop. I start a large number of discussions with other people with "what is wrong with you". And I don't mean that in an empathetic way.
Posts: 7922 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
the adge that a best form of defense is attack does not work in most situations. What you are best off doing is being calm almost emotionless and ticking off a mental to do list. Call the police, state out loud that the police have been called ask everyone to calm down dont argue or get involved in the argument. If it all possible remove one or both combatants, getting one to stand outside, or failing that simply asking out loud for help.
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I still just punch people and ask what in the name of thunder is wrong with them and then make fun of them and the idiots that brought them out in public. Then when passsers-by commend me for taking action I say derogatory things to them and stomp out to my car.
When I was 18, I witnessed a brutal murder. I talked about that years ago in Nauvoo. It mostly doesn't bother me. But sometimes it does. So this guy his arm yanked and then punched and then he got screamed at. I really really wish someone else had dealt with it.
Luckily PB is my friend. And if I get in trouble (as in my youthful days) for punching people in public, he has to take my call.
posted
Some people act, and others are afraid to act. My son-in-law once came across a guy smacking his girlfriend around in a grocery store parking lot. Other people saw it, but my SIL did something about it. He told the guy to knock it off, and when the guy ignored him, my SIL knocked him on his keister and told him to get his butt away from her.
I've never been more proud of my SIL than when he defended that young woman.
Posts: 3194 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
I hate, hate, hate confrontation. More than just about anything. When I do get into one I end up all hot and red in the face and thinking about it for hours or days on end and worrying over what I've said and done. And I'm also afraid of getting hurt - like, physically hurt - I've never been in a fight but I've seen people get so mad they get physical and I can't even imagine that happening to me. As a result I avoid confrontation like the plague, with the exception of about once every couple years when I decide I've had enough and "say something" and then have the results that I mentioned above.
Anyway, the long and short of it is that because I avoid confrontation as a rule and a habit, I would very likely not be one to "do something". I am very unlikely to get involved when a parent is interacting with their child, even if it's in a way I don't approve of, because I hate the idea of someone feeling like they have the right to get involved with my interactions with my own children.
I can't imagine myself getting involved in a situation with a big man hurting someone, because I would be more scared of getting hurt if I stepped in between them. The most I would do is call the police.
So, yeah, there you go. I'm one of the ones who doesn't act. I really admire that there are people out there who aren't afraid to - or at least do not let their fear immobilize them.
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quote:I've never been more proud of my SIL than when he defended that young woman.
He was lucky as a young man I watched a elderly gentleman get beaten by both parties as he stepped in to assist the young lady.
Call the police. Heck just making a report is more than enough, stepping forward to give an eye witness account helps the police loads. We cant all be Steven Segal.
Posts: 1460 | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I'm a tall, strong man, so I don't typically feel intimidated by others. 2 years ago I saw a man grab a woman's purse and so I ran after him. My flip-flops (and being slower than him) prevented me from catching him, but I wasn't alone in the chase, there were at least 8 other men chasing after the criminal.
A month ago I stopped at a motorcycle crash scene to see if I could help. There were already 3-4 others at the scene helping, including an off duty EMS worker. I left as the ambulances pulled up without giving my name. I certainly didn't want my name on anything.
I think there is more good and action on the part of the public than inaction.
[ October 31, 2010, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Jason ]
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
IMO, Most inaction stems from fear. The fear of being wrong. The fear getting involved will require more than I'm willing to give. The fear of retaliation. The fear of making an unrighteous judgment--or not seeing the whole picture.
In some respects I suppose its why birds flock for safety. It isn't that they like each others company, but the idea is that if only a couple in the flock get hurt, the rest of the bird population survives.
posted
Yeah, I don't get it either. A few years ago, someone in a city 300km from here was stabbed to death after a lengthy argument. Inside a crowded KFC. Whilst people watched.
When the bystanders (such an appropriate term!) were interviewed, they said they didn't want to get hurt. It was one man with a knife. If everyone in that KFC had stood up in unison and closed in on him, he'd have fled like the coward he was. Good grief, if only half the people, or maybe even if only half a dozen of them, had stood up, it would have had the same impact.
Instead, they let a woman die in front of them. And then told the cops what had happened in detail. They made great witnesses. But that wasn't quite what the victim needed.
posted
There is more than one eyewitness account from the Virginia Tech shooting, telling about how some students just stood there and let themselves be slaughtered. Some students saw the gunman enter their room shooting, and they would just stand there. Forget about fighting back, they didn't dive out a window, or even try to hide under a desk - they just stood there.
This area of human behavior terrifies me sometimes.
posted
When I have seen parents be very harsh with a child I have always been afraid to act for one reason - what if the parent takes it out on the child when they get in private if I speak up?
I have to say though I've never seen someone physically hurt another like EDG is describing. I have banned slug bug in our carpools because I do think that it could go too far.
posted
The bystander effect is very real. "This is someone else's problem" is much easier to think when there are lots of people around. Ever watch that show about What Would You Do or whatever it's called? There's also a very real attitude in many people of "none of my business."
I am a small woman, and not physically strong. But it's my experience that in these situations usually what happens is what you experienced-- one person tries to help and more people are willing to.
Personally I would probably have walked up, ignored the guy doing the hitting, and addressing the woman, said, "Hey, I noticed he's hitting you. That's not okay, why don't you walk away with me right now? If you need more help I'm happy to help you in any way you need."
Posts: 8147 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: Luckily PB is my friend. And if I get in trouble (as in my youthful days) for punching people in public, he has to take my call.
And luckily, Idaho still sometimes has a variation of Texas's "they needed punchin'" defense.
I remember Nathan Shumate telling a story here a while ago about intervening in his neighbors' domestic fight, telling the husband to fight with his words, not with his fists. I always thought that guy had stones, but that's serious stones. Like, serious.
Posts: 2968 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:That I might be capable of that level of violence terrifies me.
If it did not bother you, then you would be in trouble.
I still have no taste for violence. I prefer finding a solution that does not involve the use of force. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out that way, but as I said, I still have no taste for violence.
Posts: 1995 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Do it. Call me before you get in trouble. Call me while you are in the midst of getting in trouble. Call me when you have an idea of how you can get someone else in trouble.
That's the kind of friend I am—if trouble's involved, I'm there. Unless it's with a capital T, which rhymes with P, which stands for Pool, because I am pretty bad at Pool.
Oh, and if you're going to get in trouble in Texas, try to make it in Lubbock. I know a guy.
Posts: 2968 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:Call the police. Heck just making a report is more than enough, stepping forward to give an eye witness account helps the police loads. We cant all be Steven Segal.
Sometimes we can't wait for the police.
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