Do students & schools need parents to support honor codes & teach the necessity of honesty & integrity?
Is plagiarism “real” cheating, like looking at your neighbor’s paper during a test or raiding the office to steal the questions beforehand?
There's a local controversy about these issues, but it probably won't stay local because it's a universal concern.
A high school student in an honors program signed a pledge which his mother also signed, promising honesty & agreeing that cheating would cause immediate removal from the program. The kid & 3 others were later found to have copied work from each other, & they were transferred out of the honors class into the regular class. The kid ranted on Facebook about the punishment being tyrannical.
The parents are suing the school to reinstate the student to the honors program, saying there was not “due process,” & the discipline was too severe, & also plagiarism was classified different from “cheating.” They are upset because the kid might be Ivy League college material & now his future could be at risk. The parents also say they are getting "hate messages."
In addition to the above questions, here’s a couple more. Which is worse, cheating, breaking an honor code you signed to refrain from cheating, or trying to get out of the consequences of breaking that honor code? And what lesson do you think this young man will take from the whole experience: 1) Don’t cheat; 2) Don’t get caught; 3) If you do get caught, get a good lawyer (BTW, Dad is a lawyer).
due process? Assuming the school did an investigation prior to acting, what exactly would they expect for 'due process'? The school informed the students and the parents what was expected. They all signed that they were aware of expectations and consequences for failure to comply. The kids chose to act anyway. I suspect that they never had to toe the line before and are now surprised that there are consequences.
Posts: 5045 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Plagiarism is cheating. I don't understand why this is a difficult concept to grasp.
The husband and I worked as editors of a magazine for a year and a half. The number of people who submitted plagiarized articles (because, yes, we DID check every single one) was astounding, even after we made it absolutely clear that plagiarism was not at all accepted. Plagiarized articles were submitted as sample articles during the application process as well as later, after the writer had been accepted and were submitting articles for publication.
One guy submitted a plagiarized article, was told that it was unacceptable and why, and the next month, he does the exact same thing. (It was really really hard to find writers in Sri Lanka, which is the only reason he got that second chance.)
There's far far far far far too much attitude that plagiarism is okay. It's not. It's not whether you get caught or not.
Posts: 4281 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: The parents are suing the school to reinstate the student to the honors program, saying ... the discipline was too severe, & also plagiarism was classified different from “cheating.”
Uhhh, yeah, I'm pretty sure plagiarism used to be enough to get a student expelled in some cases. Instead of complaining about the severity of punishment, they should be grateful their kid is still in school. As for their Ivy League college comment, if the student can't even write his/her own original material, then the student is NOT cut out for Ivy League, IMO.
At any rate, they signed an agreement, and they breached it. I'd be surprised if this case doesn't get thrown out, as the parents hardly have a case to make it looks like.
Posts: 171 | Registered: Feb 2012
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The pledge that student and mom signed was a contract. The student covenanted to be honest and to not cheat. The parent (presumably) covenanted to support her child. The school covenanted to give him an honors-level education. The remedy for violation of the contract by the student was removal from the honors program, and that was spelled out in the pledge. Seems very cut and dried to me.
Posts: 1100 | Registered: Aug 2009
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We all seem to agree on it. What is it that isn't clear about "I promise not to cheat" & "I understand that if I cheat, I will be removed from the honors program"?
And what is it that's unclear about plagiarism being a form of THEFT?
Other parents quoted in the story seem to get it. The cheater & his loving parents (who seem to think they are doing their kid a big favor by challenging the school) appear to be the only clueless ones. If he takes his punishment & mends his ways, maybe he has a chance to straighten up from now on. But with Daddy & Mommy dragging this into court & all over the media, the Ivy League schools will know about it & he might end up having to go to a community college. What a hard & costly lesson; even if he doesn't learn honesty, he will learn about choices & consequenes.
Posts: 12822 | Registered: Apr 2005
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The man is an idiot. He was offered a deal where there would be no record of the plagiarism, but he has made sure that there is a public record of the offence. He talks about the damage that the expulsion will do to his son's chances, but his lawsuit will be far more damaging, whether he wins or loses.
Plagiarism is cheating pure and simple. It is a serious offence at university and the minimum punishment would be a zero for the work submitted; it can be punished by failing the class entirely. At graduate level, it can have you booted off the programme.
Posts: 1461 | Registered: Oct 2008
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Um, back in my day, the university that I attended in Alberta clearly stated in their program syllabus or whatever that huge book was that had all the course listings plus university code of honor and all that clearly stated that any cheating or plagiarism would result in expulsion. None of this namby-pamby failing a single class thing.
Is that just that university? Or have standards relaxed?
Posts: 4281 | Registered: Apr 2003
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They are a bit less draconian now. It tends to be things that will bring the university's reputation into disrepute that will earn expulsion these days. I'm on our student conduct committee, and we do try to give them the opportunity to straighten themselves out. In many cases, though, failing the class will result in them having to leave because they will not get enough credits to graduate.
Plagiarism is an epidemic at the moment, though, which seems to be connected to schools not teaching the kids not to copy from Wikipedia. Apparently, copy and paste are considered acceptable research methods in schools now. Maybe it counts as being environmental friendly by recycling knowledge....
Posts: 1461 | Registered: Oct 2008
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Plagiarism is a strange beast. It is clearly wrong, as it is theft and misrepresenting your own work. But what it is can vary from field to field.
For example, working together on math homework is not plagiarism if your teacher allows you to do so. But it could be otherwise.
Some teachers require every work consulted to be cited, others require only those you quote to be cited, and others require no citation at all.
In mathematics we borrow ideas all the time. But I have reviewed papers which went beyond that. They were clearly copied (almost word for word) from other papers. Part of the problem there is that in other countries they don't have the same notions concerning plagiarism as we do.
I personally believe that people should be given at least one chance to fix plagiarism, simply because it can be confusing what is or is not plagiarism. Students nowadays in grade school use Wikipedia to write reports. But they are not taught to cite their sources until high school (if even there!).
Is it plagiarism to parody another work without giving a citation?
Posts: 5046 | Registered: Jun 2001
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It's plagiarism if you repeat what the other person wrote and give no indication that it isn't your work. It isn't plagiarism if you paraphrase the work or if you make it clear that you are not the originator of the material. That means making sure that you have cited the source of the material. It shows that you are not claiming the work as your own, and it means that any reader can check the source to verify your interpretation of it.
Plagiarism is a fairly straightforward concept in Arts and social sciences: if you present work that is somebody else's and try to pass it off as your own, that is plagiarism. It is really easy to avoid: if you use someone else's words, stick quotation marks round them.
Posts: 1461 | Registered: Oct 2008
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Dad is a lawyer. He really should know that his son has no leg to stand on. If this was a paying client, I think that he would have a responsibility to the client to say so.
So maybe, knowing that it's unlikely that the kid would prevail in a court of law, the dad is doing this to teach the kid a lesson or two about living up to his commitments and accepting his due consequences. The frustrating thing about it is that he's doing so in a way that is going to cost the school district - and therefore all of their neighbors - thousands of dollars in legal fees to defend their decision. Now, a smart judge would tax the kid with the district's fees, so the district would recoup those costs eventually, but they would still have to pay them up front unless their lawyer is willing to delay. It might even be California law that the losing party pays the prevailing party's fees and costs.
Unlikely, given the possibility that Dad could face censure by the courts for bringing a frivolous lawsuit, plus the legal fees that they would incur (Dad's time dealing with Sun and not on real paying clients, court costs, and the school's fees and expenses), but just maybe.
posted
Interesting thought, Goody. I do agree that a smart, concerned, loving parent would want his/her child to learn about accountability & responsibility. Doesn't it seem that the best way to do this, knowing the case doesn't have a chance, would be to tell the kid to take his medicine & move on, resolving to be honest in the future? If the parent doesn't believe in honesty for its own sake, then tell the kid to be honest for selfish reasons, because it keeps him out of trouble & makes people think he's a decent person.
If a diligent lawyer knows his client doesn't have a chance, he would say so & advise the client to drop the matter. If the lawyer is also the client's loving parent & really wants the best for his son, why would he pursue a case that not only hasn't a prayer, but will bring negative attention & publicity that will dog the kid for years?
I'd like to give Dad the benefit of the doubt in this case, but I'm afraid he has his own agenda & it isn't entirely about what's best for the boy, long-term. And given that, I also think the kid ranting on Facebook might be something picked up from lifelong exposure to contentiousness & justification for the avoiding of accountability. Not that all attorneys' kids are exposed to this, just sayin'.
Posts: 12822 | Registered: Apr 2005
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It might be as simple as that the paper didn't describe plagiarism as cheating and so they didn't know that was included. I know we laugh at that since honesty isn't a bunch of specifics and only limited to that, but a lifestyle. But, particularly if what they were given to sign was intending to make it clear, someone might not have perceived it as being included.
Do I think Dad's fit of pique is helpful. Probably not. But since it was sort of a contract, if it was imprecisely worded, basic contract law would interpret that against the school, not the kiddo. Sometimes people get tied up in the letter of the law and not the spirit of what was intended.
Posts: 2176 | Registered: Feb 2005
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After a lengthy process to determine if the youth should be returned to the HONORS program, I would vote that he should be reinstated, about a week before the semester ends and then be held to the same standard as the rest of the program, a semseters worth of HONORS program work due at the end of the week.
Be careful what you ask for.
Posts: 686 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote: They are upset because the kid might be Ivy League college material & now his future could be at risk.
I agree.
But if the parents really want to identify the problem, they should quit looking at the school, and look in the mirror.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Apr 2011
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Right. As if the kid doesn't have enough moral failings as it is, we deal with it by being passive-aggressive. That'll teach him how to be an adult.
Posts: 5981 | Registered: Feb 2000
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It appears that the parents not only don't grasp the meaning of "cheating" but don't grasp the meaning of "honor" either. If the student is allowed back in, the term "honors program" becomes meaningless, and I think every other student (and their parents) in that honors program would be justified in resenting the cheapening of their program. No wonder the cheater's parents are getting hate messages.
Posts: 305 | Registered: Apr 2009
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What roper is talking about is totally different from the plagiarism that the kids in the story were engaging in.
If you assign a group of students to work together, you expect teamwork & a cooperative effort. You want to see everyone's fingerprints on the pie. That type of assignment is a learning experience in itself.
The kids at Sequoia were assigned to do their own work, & several of them copied each other's. They were aware that they were supposed to do original work. In addition to being dishonest, if they think teachers are dumb enough to not recognize plagiarism, they probably aren't bright enough for Ivy League.
Posts: 12822 | Registered: Apr 2005
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On a related note, the British Olympic Association has been forced to drop its policy of life bans for drug cheats. Now cheats will be allowed to compete again after a 2 year ban. Same sort of circumstance: caught cheating when the policy is well known and understood, but challenged the policy in court and won.
Posts: 1461 | Registered: Oct 2008
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That irritates me. If they're competing in the Olympics, then they know full well the rules. Bah!
Posts: 4281 | Registered: Apr 2003
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They probably won on the grounds of cruel and unusual punishment. A long time ago along the road in Connecticut there were not littering $100 fine. Then, someone was caught who had the money, and fought the fine on that basis and they won. The fine then changed to $10.
And considering the fines for other offenses, I think that's reasonable. On the other hand, that's a government and government regulations. Regulations that we all equally must obey.
I think there's a difference when taking upon oneself the rule is optional. I think in those circumstances the principle of cruel and unusual no longer applies, so long as the requirements are available to be learned prior to accepting them. And there is no excuse for not taking the time to learn what you are agreeing to.
Posts: 10855 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Two year ban for Olympic competition is no punishment at all. Next Olympics are in 4 years. They should at least ban them from the next Olympics. I would rather see them banned for the next two Olympics. Give them 10 years.
My experience with cheaters has been that they just plain don't care. When I was a grader for the professor in college, I had to grade assignments that were computer programs in entry level programming classes. There were an awful lot of identical programs submitted. Sometimes we would get assignments submitted with a name on top, and a different name in the comments in the code. They borrowed the program from one of their classmates, and didn't even care enough to put their own name in the code.
The professor always gave both students a zero for that assignment, but I don't think they really cared much. I was surprised how often it happened, but I was also surprised how easy it was to catch them. I couldn't understand why they didn't at least change some variable names or line numbers or something. Finally came to the conclusion that they weren't cheating because they didn't know how to do that assignment--it must have been that they ran out of time or were just too lazy. It would be as much or more work to change a few things as to write their own program. Which to me didn't make much sense, either. Better to get a certain zero grade for not turning in anything than a highly probable zero grade for cheating.
Posts: 460 | Registered: Oct 2010
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If the trial was a jury trial, then I would say that the jury agreed that cheating is not such a big deal. Which would say more about the general state of our society then about the athlete's themselves. IMO.
Posts: 10855 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: Two year ban for Olympic competition is no punishment at all. Next Olympics are in 4 years. They should at least ban them from the next Olympics. I would rather see them banned for the next two Olympics.
Excellent point, about the only way this is a punishment for someone is if they compete in both summer and winter Olympics.
quote: Better to get a certain zero grade for not turning in anything than a highly probable zero grade for cheating.
Well if the only consequence is an assignment zero it's a rational decision to risk getting a zero over getting a sure zero. Not a moral decision mind you, that particular variable isn't part of the calculus, but in cold amoral thinking a 95% chance of a zero beats a 100% chance of a zero.
posted
A tangential discussion: Where is plagiarism justified or allowed? In your experience, is copying the ideas, writings, work of others and using them as your own justified, encouraged or recommended?
I’ll admit that in my line of work, plagiarism is strictly prohibited within the halls of academia, if you are in the education classroom don’t think of borrowing anything from another without proper credit to the originator. However, outside of a schoolhouse environment, the borrowing of others ideas, writings, slides or work is not just tolerated, but expected and encouraged. Why reconstruct the wheel when someone else has already built a great wheel, just use his……
Posts: 686 | Registered: Jul 2005
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In the computer world I totally rely on things other people have written, often copy and pasting with just the smallest changes. However, the source I'm copying from is always published to the public, and those doing the posting understand other will use it for their benefit.
In fact read an article just the other day about how in the computer industry patent suits are more about hindering progress than promoting progress. Basing the article on the notion that patents were intended to promote innovation.
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