posted
I might have posted about the incidence when it happened. A wonderful man from our ward sent me, the RS president an email about another member man living close by them. He had once before lived within our ward boundaries but attended another ward because of his old mother. Now they had lived here again for a while but attended another ward but they had decided to start belonging to our ward - the first time their records after a while came. The man's wife was on a teaching assignment abroad for 4-6 months, can't remember exactly, and they had one adult daughter living nearby (some 30 minute drive).
So the man had asked the other man to contact the relief society to come and clean his house on a specific day when he gets home from the hospital after staying in the hospital for a few day after a prostate cancer surgery. They had had made kitchen renovations and thus there was a lot of dust etc.
It came with a few days notice, not so much asking but if someone could help but expecting someone to come and help. I discussed the matter with the bishop who decided that since at the time he was living on his own, it was the high priest group's responsibility. We three had some discussions (the bishop, high priest group leader and me) and came to the conclusion that we cannot help. First of all, since it was a given day that it had to be done and with a short notice, people couldn't do it. Most men work and can't just take off for something like this and the women either work or have small kids. Sure we could have had three mums look for 20 + kids and have two mums go and clean for perhaps one hour before they'd have to go home to be there when older kids get off from school... Second, his daughter couldn't be there to help, because she had other things to do. Third, it would have taken some 100 $ at most to get some professional cleaners to come and clean and they aren't poor.
So what happend was that he was told that sorry, but we really can't make it happen that day/with the requirements he had. This one man originally sending the email to me eventually went there and helped. He is a great man.
Now, getting to the point. Once before the man brought it up in Sunday school, not literally saying that since this ward didn't help me... but for those of us who were involved, it was clear what he was saying. Today he gave a talk and it being totally irrelevant to anything he had said, thought he did mention how he had been helped at times by other people in other wards, like one man leaving his job and coming to tow his car for some 100 + kilometres when it broke down. He mention how when he suffered from cancer and his house was very full of dust and needed to be cleaned and some furniture moved and he asked help and this one man, whom he mentioned by name, was the only one who helped.
So he's obviously holding it against the whole ward. And I feel sad because he obviously don't see our side of the story and I don't like him feeling that people in the ward don't want to serve and help. They do, but at the time weren't able to do "as commanded" or as he would have wished. I'd be too afraid to bring it up with him, but since I was part of the process, I feel that perhaps I should say something about it. But I think I'll just make a huge mess if I do...
What should I do, tell me oh ye wise ones Posts: 821 | Registered: Aug 2007
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So he's obviously holding it against the whole ward.
It's been my experience that there are way more "can do something"'s than "should do something"s.
And I sometimes have a hard time telling one from the other, so I tend to err on the side of doing nothing, unless there is something specifically within my stewardship (like one of my kids, or one of your sisters who needs more information.)
Sometimes treatment for wounded feelings is a bandaid, sometimes it's best to leave it open to the air. Usually it takes time.
posted
What a sticky situation, Cook, you almost feel you're "damned if you do & damned if you don't."
Without knowing the people involved, it sounds like this brother has a long & possibly selective memory & is good at holding grudges. I'm trying to think if I were in your shoes, if there is anything I could do to "fix" it, & I cannot think of anything. Because he apparently holds grudges, whatever I would do might just add to his storehouse of things to resent & haul out in the future.
When he was told it would not be possible, who told him & how did they communicate it? Was it tactful, with reasonable explanations, as in "we want to help but everyone is either working or caring for their children that day; would it be OK if we could get more people & come [on Saturday, or at 7:00 p.m., etc.]?"
That won't help this situation, but maybe for future reference, some folks need to be handled with kid gloves, & it galls normal people but we have to do it to keep the peace. And the same set of kid gloves won't work on everyone. With difficult people, offering an alternative & asking "Does this work for you?" may be better than a straight answer. To some folks, a straight answer feels (rightly or not) dismissive; giving an alternative shifts responsibility to them & they can't accuse you of blowing off their needs.
Posts: 12848 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I've found that when people have unmet expectations, it is really difficult to help them to understand why it't not everyone's responsibility to meet them.
He expected help, he didn't get it. Trying to explain why his expectations were perhaps unreasonable will only anger him. All he sees is that a group of people who always say, "Let me know if there is anything we can do" didn't do anything when he asked.
Posts: 4295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
He had prostate cancer surgery. He may have thought he was in danger of dying. He had a need then. His family did not help. The ward as a whole, did not help. A kind man did. Try seeing it from his perspective.
Not helping may have been the right thing to do. Obviously the ward council thought so. He only has his experience. I'd give him some slack over his hurt feelings.
As for time to get over it - guess he better get over it quick, all things considered.
Posts: 5052 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I think I would write him a sweet note telling him that when I heard him talk about it I saw that he was still hurting about it, and I was very sorry that neither his daughter nor his ward could do what he hoped they could do on the timetable he needed, and really thankful that there was the one person who could help, so he didn't have to hire the cleaning crew. I might even ask him specifically what I could do to make it up to him (not because I thought he deserved to feel bad, or that I owed him anything but because I would want to do what was in my power to help him get beyond it.
Maybe it will help if you simply acknowledge that he is still upset over it. (And I hope the HPGL is calling on him for service regularly so he can get the other side.)
(Your post did trouble me though in the introduction. Why would it matter how long he'd been in the ward or anything else? (Asked rhetorically.) I've seen a number of times where wards did things for some people (because they had grown to love them) that they couldn't find a way to do for others (who were not well known and well liked). That may be human nature, but it shouldn't be the way we actually do things.)
posted
Thanks all. That's how I feel, I feel I want to say I'm sorry, would you like to talk about it, but I'm afraid even that will cause more trouble. The high priest group leader was the one to communicate at the time with him, so I don't know how it all was communicated to him. Knowing him, it might have not been overly sweet and sensitive, but I don't think it would have been in any way rude either. But I do know it was discussed him if there was any other time people could come and help, like the night before or after he'd come home, but it was not an option.
I do understand his perspective to a point, having a father undergone the same treatment and process (and having a mother died of cancer, in our family prostate cancer - and the operation to get rid of it, is treated just like having a bad flu, which isn't helpful in this case).
The reason I mentioned he was new to the ward was that them having previously living in the ward but not being part of the ward, at the time his request came we - the ward - didn't know they lived there, we had heard rumors that they perhaps lived in another place in our area or were moving to our area and perhaps might start attending our ward some time during that year. Previously when the bishop had spoken with them they had made it clear that they don't want anything from the ward, no home teachers or so, because they attend the other ward. So this request to me through this member who eventually helped him and knew he lived there, came totally out of the blue. Had we known they (he) lived there or that he had cancer and was in the hospital at the time, we would have been able to early on ask if there is something he needs help with and organize it.
He didn't even know if they had any cleaning supplies in their house even though they'd lived there. It's not an excuse (them not being in our ward) and shouldn't stop from helping, but we were a bit taken aback by surprise, the first contact being a request to help at a specific time and way. At the time we didn't for example know that his wife was away working and we thought also his adult son was living nearby (had just moved to another country a week before) so our first thought was why isn't his wife contacting me and asking someone to come and help her. He's the kind of man that most members know him and the rest he thinks know him also, and personally I was baffled by being more of told than asked, and I also have to say that personally I got the feeling that he had always had his wife cleaning and since cleaning needed to be done, sisters should do it. I'm sure that's not the case but that's the feeling I got. But we would have done it if we really could have. The reason I contacted the bishop about it was that I really saw no way us sisters could do it and asked his advice how to communicate this to the man. I was relieved when the bishop took the responsibility from me and handed it to the high priest group leader.
I'm glad that one wonderful man was able to do it. He works abroad a lot, so when he's here, he's either off or working on paperwork and such and can arrange his own schedules as he likes. But he's the rare exception. He could have asked the two unemployed men we have to help him, but they're the kind of whose houses are a total mess and would have needed a lift there, so would have been more work for him to have them help. Even he wasn't able to ask his wife to join him helping, because she was working, nor his young adult daughters, because they were working on in school.
I really feel bad we couldn't help as a ward. We sometimes struggle with it in other instances as well. I wish we had more resources for these kinds of things. But then the man who did help is from the ward. If we had started to organize the cleaning thing it would have ended up being that one man and me, with that short notice, having skipped my son's physiotherapy, having asked my old mother-in-law to come take care of my other kids, having the girls skip their gym practise etc. Sure I could have done it. And I might have been able to bring along that old sweet sister who suffers greatly from asthma but would have sacrificed her own health to help others... But I would never have asked her to do that.
I probably wont do anything. I'm such a coward. But I wish he stopped mentioning it to ease off my consciousness. I guess that's my initial reason I want to do something about it. He makes me feel guilty.
Posts: 821 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
to me that man shouldn't feel good about taking the other man away from his employment to help w/his car problems. Believe me, I agree w/serving and helping others..but unless a dire emergency, service can be done outside of hours of emplyment, there are other options besides another leaving their job from tht distance.
Posts: 8580 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I think that sometimes people think that because they're members of a church whose membership is largely service oriented, they shouldn't have to pay for anything. It sounds like this is a guy with plenty of money to call a service and have them do it. They could have come out and had his house spic and span in an hour or two.
I grew up in a really affluent ward (we were not, we just lived near rich people). My dad and brother are electricians, and these people would want free work from them all the time. People have often called my very busy husband, expecting him to work on their computer or troubleshoot over the phone on their timeline, not even considering his. Once a guy showed up at our house on Christmas Eve. We were literally walking out the door to go to a party, and he wanted my husband to stop right then and fix up an old computer someone gave him so that he could give it to his daughter for Christmas the next morning.
And then people get offended when you tell them that you simply can't. If I had extra money, I would much sooner pay someone to do something we needed than inconvenience someone in our ward or neighborhood just to save a few bucks.
posted
Am I the only one who figures rayb's thread on tantrums may be a good source of advice for cook, if she decides to do something?
Posts: 2120 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I know what you're saying Jen. I've certainly seen that happen, but to the credit of members everywhere I've often seen it as more of a convience than money issue. Scenarios in which, to take your example, someone has a computer issue they want fixed and so calls someone from the ward to help ou but then pays them. Meaning they don't want to have to find a service somewhere to do it and then worry about getting ripped off (or work not done right) but they're still happy to pay for work done.
There's always some blurring of the issue. When you ask for help from the ward to move, it's rarely expected that you're paying the people that show-up. Yet many expect to be at least fed, which depending on the size of the move isn't necessarily unreasonable but isn't universal either. Is that paying for the job or just a return of Christian charity? I've never fed anyone that helped me move but on the other hand I haven't asked anyone to volunteer more than ~15 minutes to help, and normally much less (as I pack and move everything I can, leaving only two or three large items for when someone comes to help).
How much does fincial ability have to do with it? I just started an actual job (where I get paid actual money) but I've never been in a place where it would've broken me to shell out say, $40 in return for service (either directly or buying food/gift) and yet I haven't. I wouldn't mind using my professional skills at no cost to help someone who was truly in dire straits but that's easy for me to say as my skills make it very unlikely anyone will need them. Especially anyone in dire straits. And what are dire straits exactly? How skilled does the work have to be before you stop thinking of it as just lending a hand to a ward neighbor? Most people don't think of moving as skilled enough to really be offended at no return on the service, but I would certainly balk at asking an electrician to help without pay.
Like I said, I normally see the ward used more as a reference source than a pool of free labor, which is wonderful. I rarely use it for either, since I find it unlikely that the mere act of being in my ward raises the probability of better work, but then my experienced is colored by spending the majority of my time in a YSA. It seems appropriate though, I've always been pleased to see that kind of thing happening.
posted
I have seen the opposite problem. Sometimes we render service, expecting to not be paid and lay up for ourselves treasures in heaven, and the recipient insists on paying, ensuring that we have our reward. Why is it so difficult to accept service or charity? Exactly what is so bad about being a charity case?
There have been times when we have been the recipients of wonderful service--acts that really needed to be done that we didn't have the capabilities to do ourselves. I remember talking with my wife and wishing there were some way we could pay these people back, and she quoted the scripture from Matthew 6.
I think it depends on the person. If they are going to give service grudgingly or keep score, it's better to find some way to pay them. If not, let them be rewarded openly by our Father.
Posts: 462 | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:....unless there is something specifically within my stewardship ...
Is this becoming the new "that's not my job" for Mormons?
quote:29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
Perhaps I should start another thread about it, but it just seems like (currently in my ward) few people will just see that something needs to be done and then do it.
Maybe it is the desire not to overstep one's boundaries.
Where is the line between not exceeding one's stewardship and "it is not meet that we should be commanded in all things?"
Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
For me the line is, if I can do it myself or comfortably pay for someone else to do it, I do. If I can't, I accept help.
The very hardest thing about being in bed for 4 months while I was carrying the twins was having to have people come over and do my job. It was a good lesson in humility.
Posts: 4329 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:People have often called my very busy husband, expecting him to work on their computer or troubleshoot over the phone on their timeline, not even considering his. Once a guy showed up at our house on Christmas Eve.
This is why I am not a man. I am SO irritated by that.
My husband is so generous with people who call him at all hours with legal questions. SO much nicer than I would be.
Posts: 4295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:Perhaps I should start another thread about it, but it just seems like (currently in my ward) few people will just see that something needs to be done and then do it.
We had a very interesting discussion about this in Priesthood Meeting last week. On the surface, this seems like a really good thing to do, and I've read really good stories about it. One in particular that I read mumblemumble years ago in Reader's Digest, told about family whose house burned down. The brother (or somebody who was supposed to have stewardship of some type as I recall) came over, kicked a few ashes, and then said the famous line, "If there's anything I can do, just ask." The point of the story was to tell about others who didn't wait to be asked, but simply showed up and did what needed to be done.
Then, I found myself in the situation of the one in need, and recipient of service. There are those who offer service and aren't really serious about it. There are those who try to figure out what you need, and supply the need. The problem is, sometimes needs are obvious, and sometimes they're not. And sometime values or situations are so different that guessing is way off. Consider the orphanage in Haiti that gets a shipment of hand made quilts from the Relief Society in Utah. The look on the proprietor's face was priceless as he asked, "They do realize, don't they, that Haiti is a TROPICAL country?" Or the family that is offered a big box of beef, and it turns out the entire family is vegetarian. How about the lady that gets food order from the Bishop's Storehouse, and then complains because the meat is turkey burger? Not to seem ungrateful, but there are many real-life examples of misplaced service where a little bit of communication could have resulted in much better use of resources.
There's gotta be a better way. There's gotta be a way to break through the pride (or somehow get around it, leaving the dignity intact) and get them to tell you what they REALLY would use. Or work together somehow.
Posts: 462 | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:....unless there is something specifically within my stewardship ...
Is this becoming the new "that's not my job" for Mormons?
Maybe. My part in it is basically triggered by the counsel that there is no success outside of the home that will make up for failure inside it.
I served under a Bishop (young family, wife with some chronic health issues) who was very very big on not doing things outside of his stewardship. For example, after searching the handbook, discussing with the SP and the Lord, and checking with is counselors, he let the ward know that he probably wouldn't be visiting members on their deathbeds. VT/RS and HT/EQ or HPG had stewardship over that. His job was conducting funerals if necessary.
Posts: 2120 | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
And things are quite frequently inconvenient. I'm grateful for those who have stepped outside what they believed was their stewardship to help me at inconvenient times.
I am also grateful that the help so rendered did not bring their family's well-being crashing down around their shoulders. I can see how certain callings call feel (and actually BE) like being "on-call" constantly, to the detriment of one's own.
Posts: 8601 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quote: after searching the handbook, discussing with the SP and the Lord, and checking with is counselors, he let the ward know that he probably wouldn't be visiting members on their deathbeds. VT/RS and HT/EQ or HPG had stewardship over that.
This bishop obviously did what he thought was right, but it saddens me anyway. Unless members were dropping like flies in his ward, he missed a very sacred experience of giving solace and comfort to his flock. But, I guess if he felt it wasn't his job - it wasn't his job. Once, as a home teacher and as a close friend, my husband was called to the side of a mother who just lost her 13 year old daughter in a car accident. He needed to be there but she also needed the Bishop, who graciously left his family to succor her wounds. One responsibility did not negate the other's role. As Bishop, my husband was called to the side of several families when their husbands and fathers unexpectedly died. There were discussions and tears that needed the mantle of Bishop. A home teacher, I am sure, would have done his best but sometimes that mantle is required. With it, Bishops are capable of shouldering so much more than man alone.
posted
Stewardship issues are difficult. They can relate to not stepping on someone else's toes, and acting as a house of order rather than as uncoordinated individual efforts that cut across other people's efforts.
But it's a poor excuse when someone is left without the assistance that they need.
Perhaps if we're in a position where we are reluctant to do something because it isn't within our stewardship, the best thing to do is to have brought it to the attention of the person whose stewardship it is, and maybe even have extended an offer to assist in whatever that person decides should happen
Posts: 1471 | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
This man apparently has hurt feelings. That type of thing happened in my ward when I was RSP. We couldn't do what they wanted and when. I made sure that we DID things that we could do over the weeks following. Just because we were unable to help once didn't mean that we ignored them later. Dropping off homemade bread and other goodies or a meal can help a person feel loved, especially when it isn't done because of a particular request/demand.
Posts: 407 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Things I have learned from my Dutch ward; 1. The work of the ward is not always the work of the Lord. 2. My family comes first. period. 3. I do not have to make an excuse. My "no" is exactly that. (Except maybe the Bishop) 3a. My no is also an expression of my agency. Respect it. 4. The ward is the last place I call for help. Especially not at the last minute. If there is a true life altering emergency, there are a couple of people I would call, but not because they are EQ or RS presidents... and few members are closer than 30 minutes from me anyway. 5. Ward membership does not require me to be the maid, butler, pickup service, free seamstress, free barber, chauffeur, for all the other members. Willingness to serve and indentured servitude are not the same thing.
On the other hand if someone calls a PH and asks for a blessing it still appalls me when the answer is no with no effort to find a sub or the PH never shows up. Whats up with that?
Posts: 5486 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Let me clarify: the sisters who have related a NO from a blessing request give me the impression that the answer is more No, I don't feel like you deserve/need one, not No I can't right now...can you imagine a single elder sister being told something like that?
When David's appendix burst and he was dying on his feet I called the Bishop--I didn't care who he found to do it- but I needed a blessing for my boy- can you imagine if he said but it is after midnight?
I know there are people out there who ask for a blessing for a mosquito bite...but it is still acting as a priesthood holder/ healer from the Lord which is a WHOLE different thing than cleaning someone's living room, isn't it?
Posts: 5486 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Roper, you called someone else. and that is great. but when one is in crisis I think it would be sorta mean not to try and find someone else. When I had my hands full with David, I didn't have access to any telephone numbers, and I just don't think I had the intestinal fortitude to call until a PH would bless my boy.
On this side of the pond we don't have ward directories very often. I have no idea what one of my HT telephone nor residence is. Really weird.
Posts: 5486 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Cook, there may be a reason you are feeling guilty. (After all you didn't before you heard him speak.) Reach out, if that is really what you are prompted to do. It doesn't matter what you don't know. What you do know is enough to express your apology and concern (note that I'm not saying you did anything wrong --- though your second post sounded like you feel pretty defensive and need to explain when I wouldn't have thought any of that was necessary.)
And I really like the taking bread over for no reason.
Posts: 2181 | Registered: Feb 2005
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