posted
Do you think it is ok to ask the Primary Presidency for "permission" to go to Relief Society once a month? In our ward, there are 2 sisters who team teach, both travel and also wanted to have the chance to go to RS. They had been released from the former RS presidency and stated this desire upon being called.
Well today we received our new primary assignments. I will keep my age group (valiant 10) but will now have 4 kids. The current 2 girls will move up to the next level. Before the "change" was made, one of the primary teachers mentionned above (who I visit teach) had suggested I go to RS once a month. She thought the girls in my class behave well and that it wouldn't be a problem to leave them in sharing time once a month so I can go to RS. (in our ward, we teach sr primary and then have sharing time) So that had been my plan and I had thought about asking them about this.
However, though I look forward to the new kids, 3 out of the 4 can be rowdy and don't always listen well, etc. So now I don't think I can feel right about "leaving them" to go to RS. In addition, we received the updated teacher guidelines which specifically says we are to attend all of sharing time.
If I mention something to the primary does it sound like complaining? As I have said before, I recently received a special blessing from Heavenly Father. I feel this was due in part to trying to do my callings (3 at this time). I don't want to quit, and I don't want to seem like a complainer. I am trying. I need this calling and learn much from it. But once in awhile it is nice to go to RS.
The other idea might be to suggest they get a sharing time floater, someone who would come stay w/our class during sharing time and we would still teach the lesson.
Today the men taught the junior primary lessons so that all sisters could go to RS. However, since I am in senior primary, I still taught my lesson.
Anyway, since the primary presidency didn't ask for our feelings about this, do you think it is ok to go ahead and offer my unsolicited feeling? Thanks.
Posts: 8601 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
nita, I'm a go by the guidebook girl. However, in order to be an effective Primary teacher, you have to take care of you first. So, if you feel that you need to attend RS to help yourself, then you should discuss this with the Primary presidency. I don't think that a once the month missing of sharing time is going to be detrimental to the program or even your kids. I do think that primary teachers should be with their kids in sharing time...it's a time that they can bond with them and show that the Gospel can be fun. But, you need to be spiritually fed as well and 3 callings will drain anyone quickly. Talk and discuss this with your presidency and then go with what is decided.
Posts: 3157 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
The exact wording of the guideline is we are expected to go to primary every week and "remain w/the children (in our class) the entire time".
One problem I have is I am always late to opening exercises. Sometimes it is due to going to the library, setting up my class. Other times it is because I have talked w/someone, etc or done something related to the other callings.
I do need to get to church earlier so I am not rushing to do things b/w sacrament and opening exercises. I do try to do what I can the rest of the week so that I minimize needing to talk to people on Sunday. It just is frustrating w/that expectation of "the entire time" when I am trying.
But having that expectation makes it harder to have a quick conversation w/someone else that I might want to talk too. Anyway I will try, I don't mean to share this negative attitude here, I just feel bugged.
Posts: 8601 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I don't think it would be wrong to ask the Primary President if you can go to Relief Society once a month. One of our senior Primary teachers goes off to Priesthood to play the piano for them, and he alternates weeks with his wife (they team teach) and she goes to RS occasionally. Our Primary is pretty small and the children are well behaved so we don't need the teachers there to maintain reverence, but we love having them there to participate with us. I don't mind when our teachers want to go to RS, but I appreciate it when they ask ahead of time, so that if we're doing something in sharing time that requires their involvement we can suggest that they stay this time.
Actually, in my ward, it's more common to have the opposite problem -- few of our teachers want to go to Relief Society. Even when there was a special meeting and we were asked to excuse all of our non-essential staff for the last hour, everyone declared herself "essential" and stayed with the children!
Posts: 1330 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Not to be judgemental, but unless you have a hundred or more kids in your sharing time, every teacher should be able to attend their 'adult' meeting on a rotating basis.
Well designed, engaging sharing times shouldn't require every teacher to be there every week--most of them, yes, but not all of them. When I was most recently Primary music leader, we made it a point to make sure every teacher got to attend 'their' meeting on a schedule--probably every 6 weeks, rather than each month. We simply sat children whose teacher was going to be going to the adult meeting right up front, right where I and the second counselor could see them and correct them with a pointed finger if need be. We very, very rarely had to take the step of moving a disruptive child to a seat next to me at the front of the room once the presidency and I had established firm routines for ST. We had a routine for the scripture, a routine for the prayer, a routine for the talk; I had 6 or 7 routines for singing time--over time, the children would even ASK for particular routines that they thought of as games. We had visual aids for each routine to serve as cues to even the youngest children what we were doing now. We probably went thru 100 sheets of poster board a month keeping up with visual aids, but they really, really helped.
Here's an example of was working for us.
A large easel goes at the front of the room where you can change a picture of the piano (for the prelude music) and the announcements to the picture of a child praying (the reverence song and prayer); then to a picture of the Bible for the scripture reading; a picture of a speaker for the 2 minute child talk; then a picture of smiling happy children for a wiggle song or two--even for senior primary, the break of an up tempo song related to the lesson helps enormously with reverence--and then to a picture of one of the prophets (the picture of the prophet reminds us to listen respectfully) for lesson time, with several different related pictures from the library to go along with the lesson. After the lesson, I varied between several set routines for singing time. Lyrics for a new song to be learned went up on the easel, or for a song to be reviewed. A big single note on a posterboard went up for the 'note test' to see which class could sing a recently learned song first (you have to raise your hands, not just start singing.) A picture of a basketball for "Sing that Song" competition, which could last as long as needed on Sundays where the lesson was short or the speaker didn't show. At the end of every singing time, I would choose a 'best singer' for the week who would then get to choose the closing song. (We sang Army of Helamon a LOT.) I made sure that every child got to choose at least once each year. After the closing song, we would put up the prayer picture again, and we would have piano music again while we waited for the parents to pick the children up.
You have to be hyper-organized and a little overprepared, even if it's not your basic nature--it's certainly not mine, but this works like a charm.
But organization aside, you also have to INSIST on reverent discipline. We probably sent 2-3 kids every ST to their father (never their mother!) the first month for disrupting sharing time. All the children learned by Easter that irreverence was absolutely unacceptable in the chapel and that Sister Sheryl didn't care how much trouble you got in with your dad for being sent out of Primary--if I said said "Three, Peter", 6 year old Peter was on his way to Gospel Doctrine, period. (Peter was our 'ADD boy' who everyone swore would never be able to be quiet. HA!) All the children knew that if they had to come sit next to my chair, the next place they were going was to their dad. Going to Dad is never, ever good. Dads never have cheerios or candy or gum or paper to draw on or ANYTHING appealing--Dad doesn't have the purse. Always send troublesome ones to Dad.
Someone in your Primary leadership has to take the position of being the disciplinarian. When I'm in Primary, it always ends up being me because my background as a high school teacher gives me a great variety of stern warning looks, which then progress to an assertive discipline style count--I've done it before and I have no guilt about giving a 10 year old girl The Eye of Doom. And sufficiently firm looks over time will do away with the need to count. (Peter, for example, will stop dead to this day, close his mouth and fold his arms if I give him The Quiet Look; and he was ordained a priest last month. )
Organization, routines and rule enforcement on the part of the Primary leadership is the key to Primary teachers being able to attend their own meetings. Only if your Primary needs work in one of those areas would teachers be required every single week.
Posts: 103 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I discovered something cool recently. I often have to slip out of sharing time for part of the third hour to feed my baby. And the Relief Society recently started meeting in the chapel because it was so crowded. The chapel mic gets piped in to the mothers' room.. Sometimes the baby takes a loooong time to eat.
It's not quite like attending RS, since I only hear the teacher not the sisters' comments, but it's kind of nice...after 6 years of attending RS maybe 5 times.
And what did you do if the dad was teaching Elder's Quorum or Sunday School? What if he wasn't even there because he has to work one Sunday a month? What if both parents have obligations during Primary hours?
Posts: 4326 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
What if Dad's not even in the building, not because of work or inactivity, but because of a stake calling? Even if my husband weren't unavabile, I guarantee I'd be more feared by my children than Dad. No treats out of purses or entertainment from me!
posted
I don't carry anything fun to church either. There is nothing to eat or play with in my bag, just meds and scriptures. We have actually invited our kids to come to us if they are ever having a hard time in primary. I don't mean coming to tell us after, I mean politely excusing themselves from class and coming to sit quietly with their Daddy or Mom. I can only think of 3 times that has happened. Said child was not in trouble, they just sat quietly and regrouped. Overall our kids are very good in church. It isn't because they have been glared at or disciplined strictly. It is because we have been really clear on what is expected, helped them develop coping strategies to do what is expected, and helped them have a plan if they get into trouble.
I am not sure that being proud of various glares really gets to the heart of teaching children reverence. You can silence a kid without teaching them a thing.
Posts: 8094 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:what did you do if the dad was teaching Elder's Quorum or Sunday School
Took the misbehaver to Dad anyway!
Peter's dad team-taught his GD class with another elder, and we took that kid in every time he got to three. Probably the second time I was the one to take him in, his father excused himself to the class, came and took his son, apologized to me, and said, "Peter, we've talked about this." Then without another word, he sat his son on a chair behind the whiteboard, out of sight of the class, and when back to his lesson. And I went back to a Primary that saw that we meant what we said about being respectful of other people's right to hear what's being said.
The problem, as I see it, is that far too many people view Primary as just a babysitting service so that they can go to their 'own' meeting. Even Primary teachers sometimes buy into that nonsense.
That's not what Primary is. Not even the nursery.
Primary is where our children have their first experiences as members of the church, where they begin to learn to function in an extended community. If Primary is allowed to be "just" a babysitting service, devoid of reverence or respect for others, in my opinion it undermines the entire ward.
Unfortunately, only about half of the Primary Presidencies I've worked with insist on Primary fulfilling its proper role for both children and the ward. Too many teachers (who are glad to bring a child in need of a clean diaper!) are reluctant to say to a parent, "I'm bringing you your child because he/she is being noisy and disruptive today, and that is not acceptable in Primary. I will call you on Tuesday, so we can figure out a strategy so this problem won't occur again."
I don't know why this is so often the case. It isn't just mothers who don't want to seem to criticize other moms, or young men, or younger moms with little experience with older children or even quiet seeming single sisters--in fact, the PP who I learned the very most about the importance of respect and reverence in Primary from was the quietest, sweetest, shyest older spinster sister I've ever known; while probably the most ineffective PP I've every worked with was a teacher, just like me!
If Dad isn't at church at all, and there's not an uncle or a grandfather in the ward you can use, I suppose you have to settle for Mom. But it doesn't work as well, especially if you have to take them to RS. I think it's all the older ladies in there that makes RS seem safer, somehow, less of a punishment, than a room full of big men all in dark suits.
Understand though, that sending kids to their parents is only about a quarter of the battle--although it's a critical one, and one you have to use and be consistent with.
The real key is to make Primary such a wonderful experience--challenging, enlightening, fun--that the punishment becomes not being allowed to stay and be part of it. Yes, you get rid of your disruptive child by taking it to the parents. But the real lesson for the child is when their brother or sister rejoins the family and has a new song to sing, or has a star on his/her forehead for winning Sing that Song or a ring string around his/her finger to "remind them" of some key precept from the lesson, or a fake pearl, etc... Primary should to be so attractive that being sent from it is the punishment.
And once the children WANT to be in Primary, they don't need nearly as much supervision; which allows their teachers to take turns going to their 'adult' classes every few weeks.
Posts: 103 | Registered: Oct 2004
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If you are concerned about my kid's behavior, bring them to me. You don't need to pick the situation that you think will be most threatening to the child (dark suits vs. sweet RS sisters). Bring me the kid. State the problem. I'll handle it.
I do not expect anyone to put up with kid being disruptive or poorly behaved. I also don't expect anyone else to take it on themselves to correct that behavior. Identify the problem. Set the boundary, but never ever ever ever ever ever ever presume to design a punishment for my kid.
This punishment scenario also makes some pretty wild assumptions about men and woment that aren't entirely accurate. It assumes that all Daddy's are disciplinarians. It assumes that all Mommies are softies. Not the case.
Posts: 8094 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
It always saddens me when people think they cannot get their needs met by faithfully and fully filling their callings, including attending all the meetings that go with them.
How are primary children supposed to learn that primary is important if even their teachers think it is alright to be late or skip out of various parts?
We miss out on a lot when we do not trust God to help us meet our needs while consistently doing what He has asked us to do.
Most importantly, we miss out on the mutual reinforcement that comes when sharing/singing experiences can be dovetailed with class teaching, or the opportunity to cheer some student or bless some student in a way that is not possible when we are the ones teaching.
When we think of sharing time/singing as expendable, the message we give is the Lord's program isn't very important. What a sad message to give.
Posts: 2204 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote: I also don't expect anyone else to take it on themselves to correct that behavior.
Parents like your are more and more of an exception, even within the church.
In every ward, there's an ever increasing contingent of parents who DON'T teach their children basic manners or courtesy in their home, DON'T teach their children to take turns or share and who never correct misbehavior. They act as though they've adopted a puppy rather than had a child, and use "positive training" methods that theorize that if one simply ignores a child that misbehaves, while giving rewards when the child behaves properly, one will magically grow a well-behaved child.
This theory is utter nonsense. It doesn't even work particularly well on puppies.
Unless there are also penalties associated with misbehavior, there's no point in rewarding good behavior.
And don't punish your child? Who are you trying to kid?
Every good teacher is ABSOLUTELY going to punish your child, in an effort to get them to obey the agreed upon rules before they give up and bring it to you.
The punishment rung goes something like this: A series of warnings. "Michael, I need for your to quiet down, so everyone can hear." Different people give different numbers of 'quiet' warnings--but Michael continues, just for the sake of argument. Thus comes the next level, the first penalty (punishment 1): "I'm sorry that you can't help but talk to Benjamin, Michael. Others are trying to hear, and your talking is not fair to them. Please sit in this chair over by Sara, so you won't whisper so much." Next Michael starts kicking the chair in front of him--and punishment 2 arrives. "Michael, I'm sorry that you feel you must kick Arthur's chair. Please move up here in the front row, so Arthur can pay attention." If Michael then turns around and begins chatting with Arthur, Michael incurs punishment 3: "Michael, your behavior is not acceptable. I'm giving you a 1, Michael." That's straight out of assertive discipline 101. If Michael then chooses to take off his bow tie and throw it at Benjamin, he incurs punishment 4: "Michael, I've told you that this misbehavior is unacceptable. I'm giving you a 2, Michael. If I have to give you a three, I'm sorry, but you won't be allowed to stay in class. You will have to go to your dad."
No matter how often good behavior is rewarded, without an escalating scale of warnings and punishment, they won't even learn self-discipline, much less develop a sense of group discipline as a class.
So let me reaffirm: EVERY good teacher is going to punish your kid if he/she misbehaves. They're not going to slap them or throw them across a room, but they will punish them.
As far as "assumptions" go, my assumption--based on no little bit of quiet interviewing and observation before I decided that Dad is the preferable option when sending a child out of Primary--is that the men in priesthood meetings are a whole lot less likely to smile indulgently at a child who has to be brought into their meeting than the older, grandmothery sisters are of the ones who get brought into RS. There's inevitably little group of these white-haired, wrinkly loveys in the ward who (whether the mother is trying to enforce some kind of maternal authority or not) will ALWAYS reach out and pat the child and possibly the mother as well, and whisper "Everyone has a bad day." You know who they are in your ward. They do it with love in their hearts, but they do it; and it makes RS seem like not such a bad place to end up.
Men in priesthood meetings are far more likely to let Dad deal with the child without comment--there's a general "his kid, his problem" sensibility.
Posts: 103 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I guarantee that if my child was brought to me for misbehavior (which has not yet happened through four kids and 13 years) I would not be sitting with them in Relief Society. I would be out in the hall with them and we would be dealing with it.
"I suppose you have to settle for Mom"!
Sorry, but that seems like quite a blanket statement to make. My children don't have to settle for me. If anyone's settling, it's me settling for being the only one at church with my children. But I don't let them see that as lesser, or a problem. Maybe that's why they don't act out--they know perfectly well that Dad's busy doing his calling, Mom's doing her calling, and the expectation is that the kids are there to attend Primary, be well-behaved, and have a good time.
Don't sell us all short. When I was a young mom with a Sunbeam and a very heavy baby in arms, my husband was in the bishopric. He also traveled a lot. And we went to church forty-five minutes from our house. My Sunbeam had a terrible time going to Primary. (Didn't help that he had three teachers within the first three months.) One Sunday, my husband was out of town. Sunbeam son made it through opening exercises, because I stood in the hallway where he could see me through the open door. But when it came time for class, he balked. Loudly. With screams and tears.
I snapped. I put both kids in the car. I started to drive home. Very fast. Very angry. And then I reached a literal turning point in my churchgoing life. I pulled over to the side of the road, said a prayer, and turned around. I took my sons inside and told the Sunbeam, "You are going to class. It's where Heavenly Father has asked you to be. We do what Heavenly Father asks. I can't force you to go into class and not scream, but we are not going home while it's church. And you're not coming to my class. So stand in the hall or go to Sunbeams."
He went to Sunbeams. And since then, I've never looked back on what I expect of my children at church. Don't assume that because I'm their mother I'm second best at teaching my children what I expect from them at church.
Posts: 555 | Registered: May 2006
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posted
There is a huge difference between classroom management which is a teacher's stewardship and punishing a kid.
Suffice it to say, it's probably provident that my kids aren't in your primary . Cause it would so be on.
And whether or not you think that parents adequately discipline their kids doesn't make it your job. I think a lot of people spend their money foolishly but I am not allowed to take over their bank account.
My kids are very well behaved. Well enough behaved that we took them to a ceremony in the Govenors office that was being broadcast. No problems. My dear friend is the Primary president in my ward and she is well aware that if one of my kids has an issue, I am all over it.
I think what I object to most is the tone of disregard and animosity towards parents. Creating an advesarial relationship with parents is not a good teaching strategy.
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It seems your strategy has a bit of "this child will behave or everyone in the ward will pay for it."
If I were to be interupted while trying to teach a class, it would effect a lot more than just a Primary leader and me and my child. There goes the Spirit that has been carefully built up through the lesson...and every student in that class suffers. Doesn't seem equal to the offense, in my mind.
Yes, a child needs to behave. But show me a kid who knows that misbehaving gets to put a room full of adults out, and I'll show you a powerful kid. A kid who feels powerful in relation to adults is NOT going to be an obedient kid. They are going to misbehave and watch the adults have to scramble to deal with them.
I have always had extraordinary children when it came to church behavior. Walked into nursery at 18 months and never had any trouble. Then I had child #5. At 5 years old, he behaves most of the time more like my 3 year old. He has a lot of difficulty in social situations. He WANTS so desperately to be good. I see him fight with his own inability to make himself sit still. He has no desire to interupt or disrupt or draw attention to himself. He is just developmentally behind his peers. Some Sundays he can sit all through Sacrament and opening exercises...sometimes not.
I am so grateful that the sisters in our Primary don't humiliate him and make him feel like he is a bad boy because he can't sit still. He would be crushed if he was forced to leave the room for something that he really struggles with.
I am so grateful that one of the Primary presidency is willing to sit with him and keep drawing him back to his seat and lovingly hold him in her arms when he is having a tough time. He is doing so much better!! I talk to my friend (who is Primary Pres) and she says she can see his ability to behave (maturity) increase every week.
There is a difference between defiant, difficult children and ones who need repetitive experiences to increase their ability and stamina in certain social situations.
I would hope that you, as Primary leader, would prayerfully consider that as you work with the children.
Posts: 4326 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Have you checked the guidance offered at lds.org in "Serving in the Church-Primary-Sunday Primary-Teaching and Expecting Appropriate Behavior"?
The guidance offered is quite different from your methods bossysheryl. Even the outline suggests a different aproach:
Preparing to Teach Appropriate Behavior 1. Love the Children 2. Understand the Children and their Needs 3. Prepare the Learning Environment
Teaching Appropriate Behavior 1. Help Children Take Responsibility for Their Behavior 2. Respond to Disruptions Appropriately 3. Unite with Others to Teach Appropriate Behavior
I appreciate pnr's comments:
quote: We miss out on a lot when we do not trust God to help us meet our needs while consistently doing what He has asked us to do. ...
When we think of sharing time/singing as expendable, the message we give is the Lord's program isn't very important. What a sad message to give.
I do understand nitasmile's difficulties because she is serving in more than one calling. But whenever possible, we should serve children just as responsibly as we would adults. After all, we are the example they are to follow.
Posts: 624 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:I appreciate pnr's comments: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We miss out on a lot when we do not trust God to help us meet our needs while consistently doing what He has asked us to do. ...
When we think of sharing time/singing as expendable, the message we give is the Lord's program isn't very important. What a sad message to give. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do understand nitasmile's difficulties because she is serving in more than one calling. But whenever possible, we should serve children just as responsibly as we would adults. After all, we are the example they are to follow.
Thank you to both of you. Thank you Eyrie for understanding too. PNR, I appreciate your point, I do. My attitude is not of nonchalance or indifference, if you knew me I would think you would better understand. I try to serve the kids responsibly and respect them. I spend a lot of my personal time on primary related things.
Everyone is busy, whether w/work, family, etc. The issue that led to my original question was due to a desire to do my best. I don't want to feel like I am failing just for being a few minutes late. However, if one has 3 callings there are inevitable conflicts. Which is more important? If someone is talking, it is hard for me to cut them off to leave. Also, if I get held up in the library that makes me late. I attend two different institute classes. I need to do better w/my own personal study. I do try to take care of things outside of church hours so I can have time at church to talk to people to whom I want and to just enjoy the Spirit and not feel pressure to take care of calling-related matters.
But those technicalities & logistics aside, I need something for me too. Sometimes that comes from RS and hearing the comments of the others. Other times, it is me having a few moments to talk to a friend even if I am late as a result.
I am trying my best to manage my life at home, at work and w/my family. Right now I am kind of floundering. Logically, it makes sense to say I need to drop one of the callings. But as indicated earlier, I need and want those callings. So I am trying my best.
All I am trying to say is I want a little something more for me. Yes, of course I love the messages of sharing time and the kids talks, etc. I learn a lot. But I think another part of my issue is not feeling much appreciation at times.
But once in awhile, I need a lesson for me, from RS. Yes, I can read the lesson. But sometimes it is nice to be there in person.
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In my house, Dad is the soft and fun one. I am the mean guy, the disciplinarian. The kids would MUCH rather be brought to Dad, I'm sure.
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